New single: Would'a, Should'a, Could'a ??

Talk about Petra albums, songs, and concerts.
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Post by winterlens » Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:17 am

LexingtonPethead wrote:Unjust? Come on!! That's way over the top. Did they or did they not drop the song due to negative responses from the audience?
And what evidence is there at all that the people who called in to sink the song did so because it was Petra? Or does it reflect the fact that it just wasn't what they liked?

The real problem with Petra getting airplay is that they can't get an honest chance because the fans are so busy crying foul when they don't

Maybe there is an anti-Petra bias everywhere in CCM. But I suspect it's just as much due to over-zealous fans as it is to their longevity and Scriptural standpoints (don't look now, but the Bible isn't contemporary anymore).
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Post by Shell » Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:19 pm

That's probably one of the best posts anyone has made about this topic so far Winterlens. :D

We might do well to not worry so much about who likes them and who doesn't and just pray for them. :)
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Post by BigD » Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:21 pm

*applauds Winterlens' post*
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Post by LexingtonPethead » Sat Feb 14, 2004 5:22 pm

winterlens wrote:
LexingtonPethead wrote:Unjust? Come on!! That's way over the top. Did they or did they not drop the song due to negative responses from the audience?
And what evidence is there at all that the people who called in to sink the song did so because it was Petra? Or does it reflect the fact that it just wasn't what they liked?

The real problem with Petra getting airplay is that they can't get an honest chance because the fans are so busy crying foul when they don't

Maybe there is an anti-Petra bias everywhere in CCM. But I suspect it's just as much due to over-zealous fans as it is to their longevity and Scriptural standpoints (don't look now, but the Bible isn't contemporary anymore).
Of course there is no evidence... :roll: it was a THEORY based on my interactions with people I know personally, and who would have sunk any song by Petra regardless of what it sounded like.

Okay, let me say this clearly: people are assuming I accused EVERYONE who called in to sink the song did so because it was Petra. That's a misinterpretation.

First, I simply stated that people with a bias MAY have intentionally called in to sink the song. That is not "expecting everyone to like Petra", it's not an unjust accusation pointed at any one person, and it's not a proclamation of fact as some have tried to portray it.

Let me rephrase... if WCS went down as hard as Michael said it did, then it seems plausible that there was anti-Petra bias out there that could have played a part. I don't think that's so unreasonable. I'm not stupid enough to think that anyone who doesn't like Petra is just biased against them.

I've read NUMEROUS posts on this site where people have referred to "the bias" as if it was public knowledge. I don't recall anyone posting "proof" of it. So back off on the "proof" thing.

Everyone has their own point of view on this subject. I merely pointed out something that may have contributed to the negative response Michael cited.

Next time I postulate, someone remind me to wear my flame suit. :lol:
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Post by LexingtonPethead » Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:19 am

winterlens wrote:And what evidence is there at all that the people who called in to sink the song did so because it was Petra? Or does it reflect the fact that it just wasn't what they liked?

The real problem with Petra getting airplay is that they can't get an honest chance because the fans are so busy crying foul when they don't

Maybe there is an anti-Petra bias everywhere in CCM. But I suspect it's just as much due to over-zealous fans as it is to their longevity and Scriptural standpoints (don't look now, but the Bible isn't contemporary anymore).
Well, I don't see what's so great about this post. I think trying to pin Petra's failure to get radio exposure on their fanbase is way off the mark. Likewise, blaming CCM's anti-Petra bias on their fanbase is just as ridiculous.

That's like saying the more we like listening to Petra, the less likely we are to hear them on the radio and the less popular they will be in the mainstream.

I'm sure radio stations get requests all the time to play bands that never make their playlists. I doubt very seriously that any radio station is going to single out Petra and hold a grudge because some Pethead requested Jekyll & Hyde.

Also, I just don't buy the idea that overzealous fans are causing Petra to be more unpopular. What's that supposed to mean?... Petheads are turning people off by either talking about them too much to people who don't like them, or by making people listen to their music against their will? How else does an overzealous fan cause Petra to become less popular in the mainstream? Anyone care to explain that?
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Post by Pethead1 » Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:23 am

There is one in Atlanta that has told me and some others that they will not play Petra. As far as I know they still will not. I do not listlen to them anymore. Not becacus they wont play Petra but because they were mean about it.

When JAH came I called again and asked. I got laughed at. This station alos told my son to quit requesting non christian bands. He waned to here Switchfoot.

I just change the station aor put in a CD.
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Post by LexingtonPethead » Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:06 am

Pethead1 wrote:There is one in Atlanta that has told me and some others that they will not play Petra. As far as I know they still will not. I do not listlen to them anymore. Not becacus they wont play Petra but because they were mean about it.

When JAH came I called again and asked. I got laughed at. This station alos told my son to quit requesting non christian bands. He waned to here Switchfoot.

I just change the station aor put in a CD.
This is exactly my point. That radio station already had it's mind up. The fact that Pethead1 called and requested Petra had no impact on their decision to not play Petra because they had already decided.

We've had long discussions on these things before - things that led to Petra's decline in popularity - mostly the things that occurred and/or failed to occur in the mid-to-late 90's.

When Petra "disconnected" with what its larger fanbase wanted (solid "rock" CDs which Petra was not delivering), a lot of people lost interest - including myself. My guess is that CCM radio also lost interest, and now those shoes have been filled with younger bands who are doing a better job connecting with their listeners.

So, I don't see that Petra's existing fanbase has anything to do with it. Sorry, I just don't buy it.
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Post by Shell » Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:06 pm

I'll let Winterlens clarify what he was trying to say, but my take on it is we've spent an awful lot of time trying to figure out why they're not as popular as they were in the 90s and why they're not getting radio play when we'd do better to put that energy into praying for them. I know this is a message board and it's for discussing issues, but we speculate a lot about why things are the way they are. There could be any number of contributing factors to why they don't get radio play, and it is very possible the radio stations already have their minds made up. There's nothing wrong with calling and requesting a song, but what do you do when their mind is made up?

I don't think how much air play Petra gets and how popular they are matters as much as their message. I'd rather have them not be popular with the industry then to play their game just to get air play.
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Post by LexingtonPethead » Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:41 pm

You're right, Shell. This has been discussed very extensively, and we'd be better off at this point praying for them.

I can see where Petra could regain some popularity if they will stick with the new rock sound and expand it on the next CD, kinda what Jason was alluding to with his "big sound" (or lack thereof) comment in an previous thread. Filling in the holes would be the next logical step and may broaden Petra's fanbase as a result.
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Post by BillDD » Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:20 pm

LexingtonPethead wrote:What I meant was if the radio station announced the name of the band being Petra before playing Woulda Coulda Shoulda, people who are not fond of Petra may have made a special effort to "sink" the song by calling in and telling the DJ to lose it just because they don't want to hear Petra.

For example, BillDD would be a likely listener who might do something like that.

Just a theory. :)

Well, I would have sunk the song because at some point a band's lyrics have to mature beyond dumbed down catch phrases. Possible songs titles for the next petra album, "Talk to the hand", "Whatever", "Walk the talk", and so on. I mean come on, there are 20 yr olds writing better and deeper lyrics, a 10 year old could have written woulda coulda shoulda.
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Post by Shell » Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:54 pm

You just couldn't resist taking another jab at them could you bud?

I know I'm probably wasting my time here, but what exactly is it that you have against them other than you don't like their music? And if it's just that you don't like their music, why do you keep coming around? Maybe if I understood exactly why you're so ticked off at them I could be a little more understanding, but your posts contain a little too much hostility towards them (and Petra fans too) for me to think it's just that you don't like their music.

I would love to hear your side of it, why don't you send me a private message.
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Post by winterlens » Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:16 pm

BillDD wrote:Well, I would have sunk the song because at some point a band's lyrics have to mature beyond dumbed down catch phrases. Possible songs titles for the next petra album, "Talk to the hand", "Whatever", "Walk the talk", and so on. I mean come on, there are 20 yr olds writing better and deeper lyrics, a 10 year old could have written woulda coulda shoulda.
Define mature.

Spiritual maturity usually appears pretty simple because it's the same story you've heard since you were two and a half. But we see exactly the same themes permeate the Scriptures that most of us don't have time to pay attention to anymore because we're so busy trying to lead a "purpose driven life" or to harness our spiritual power for personal gain. Or wallowing in the filth of our fleshly experience instead of fixing our minds on things above. One of the things that makes early Petra so good is that it doesn't do any of those things. WSC's failing is that it doesn't turn our minds to look at God's sovereign hand in directing our choices.

Some of the lyrical moments in Jekyll and Hyde really do need work, but I can think of more lyrically complex songs that are a bit more heretical than anything on the disc. (For the record, though, I routinely skip WSC.)
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Post by LexingtonPethead » Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:36 pm

BillDD wrote:Well, I would have sunk the song because at some point a band's lyrics have to mature beyond dumbed down catch phrases. Possible songs titles for the next petra album, "Talk to the hand", "Whatever", "Walk the talk", and so on. I mean come on, there are 20 yr olds writing better and deeper lyrics, a 10 year old could have written woulda coulda shoulda.
You gotta hand it good ol' BillDD for shaking things up once in a while... always providing the flip-side point of view.

If anyone needed proof about the plausibility of my theory about WCS being sunk with bias, now you have it. I told you all my college buddy was not alone. :D

But here's a question: Why is it so hard to see value in simple songs with simple lyrics? Maybe we got spoiled by the deep lessons provided in many of the Petra CDs from the 80's and 90's? I don't know. Sometimes it's good to keep things simple. :D
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Post by winterlens » Sun Feb 15, 2004 6:26 pm

LexingtonPethead wrote:Well, I don't see what's so great about this post. I think trying to pin Petra's failure to get radio exposure on their fanbase is way off the mark. Likewise, blaming CCM's anti-Petra bias on their fanbase is just as ridiculous.
I'm not suggesting that all of Petra's problems are related to their fanbase, nor do I think that their problems with airplay are entirely caused by "over-zealous fans." I do think, however, that radio stations respond poorly to a barrage of calls from people who aren't in their listening area or who don't regularly listen to their station. Regardless of how we feel about the band, there's a certain amount of deceit in promoting them where we can't hear them or to stations we don't listen to.

I'm not pointing fingers, by the way--simply pointing out that this has happened on some scale in the past. (Petheads are the reason, I think, that ChristianRock.net now has request rules as they are now. Petra's ranking was dropped pretty arbitrarily because some people would over-request the song.)

Let's turn the tables for a second. Do you detect in this zone a certain "Anti-CCM" bias? A quick examination of some threads would indicate that this is so.

When we approach CCM in that manner, it becomes doubly hard to promote the band sincerely. ("Well, I don't really care for CCM, but that's what Petra has to play in, so I'll deal with the goons at Word or RadioU because I have to.")
That's like saying the more we like listening to Petra, the less likely we are to hear them on the radio and the less popular they will be in the mainstream.
Isn't this to a certain degree the case? What happens to over-played singles and over-hyped artists? And significant genres of music predicate their existence on the rejection of the mainstream. You could almost argue that Petra belongs to such a genre.
I'm sure radio stations get requests all the time to play bands that never make their playlists. I doubt very seriously that any radio station is going to single out Petra and hold a grudge because some Pethead requested Jekyll & Hyde.
But they will if a lot of overbearing, pushy fans who have a chip on their shoulders call in and argue with them about how to run their business. And yes, this has happened.
Also, I just don't buy the idea that overzealous fans are causing Petra to be more unpopular. What's that supposed to mean?... Petheads are turning people off by either talking about them too much to people who don't like them, or by making people listen to their music against their will? How else does an overzealous fan cause Petra to become less popular in the mainstream? Anyone care to explain that?
It's the simple fact that a lot of fans--of any artist or band, not just Petra--aren't objective, and there is nothing more frustrating than talking to someone who can't see objectively. How else do you explain people who think the Cubs can actually win the series this year? (Said with tongue somewhat in cheek.)

I'm not saying that we all need to be musical critics. But the fact of the matter is that, while Jekyll and Hyde is "the most musically relevant record Petra's done in the past decade," Petra simply isn't producing ground-breaking work. JAH is a pleasant listen when you're in the mood for stripped down rock'n'roll, but it pales in comparison musically to Jesus Freak. Let's call a spade a spade. JAH is a good album--but it isn't great, and if radio stations and their listeners come to the same conclusion, it shouldn't surprise us that that would choose something else.

There's another point to consider: how much does the voting of the listeners reflect how much they liked the other song in comparison? There are so many different reasons that WSC could sink that it's hard to say that it sunk because Petra-haters called in.

Beyond this, it ascribes a certain amount of fame to Petra that they don't really have. Does your average CCM groupie really know who they are, outside of the Houseplant song? (Answer: no.) Sure, there are a few people without lives who might get their kicks by sinking Petra songs (or writing poorly-thought-out messages to Petra fan boards), but by and large, I think most people have better things to do with their lives.
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Post by Shell » Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:19 pm

That's a very well-worded thoughtful post, and you make some valid points Winterlens. :) And you weren't hostile and didn't make any accusations, thank you. :D
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