BTTR Must Be Selling Well

[executioner]

Boy kind of on the defensive there are we?

[bakersfieldpethead]

I'm through with this, there's better things to talk about. This isn't solving anything, I'm not going to call someone stupid, If they put that label on their own face, then so be it. I know in my heart what's right and wrong and as long as I live according to how God tells me to and I stay true to my convictions I'll be alright. Those who choose to brush away conviction and try to somehow justify their actions will answer to God for what they do.

I just have to make sure I obey God in my life.

[blayze5150]

SU: In no way shape or form is this an attack, but it is a fellow believer expressing his opinion on this subject. These artists put their money, time, pride, heart and soul into this music. This is how they make their living. Should we really take it just because it's there? I have personally only downloaded the work of one artist without paying for it, and that was Steve Taylor. He actually encouraged his fans to do so if they found it because it was unavailable at the time. IMO, if the music is not available for sale, then it probably should be fair game. If it is for sale, though, I feel an absolute obligation to buy it. I don't know that many career musicians anymore, but the ones I do seem to be really upset about the way the industry is going. People downloading and not paying is taking money out of their pockets... money they have earned. Musicians, engineers, producers, and songwriters all have to be paid, and music sales make that happen. If you enjoy a product that is for sale and use that product for what it is intended without paying, it is wrong. It is not my intention to rebuke you or anyine else who feels that it is not, but I find it hard to justify that kind of action. Do I think you are taking down our music industry by yourself? Absolutely not, but if you think it's okay, then someone else, then thousands of someone elses, then millions... it adds up quick! Hopefully the music industry will find a way to adapt and the entertainers who we all love will flourish. For the time being, I would rather be part of the soltiuon than contribute to the problem.
Once again, not an attack: just wanted to speak my heart!

[petraman]

Now the claws come out!

[bakersfieldpethead]

Now the claws come out!

No, we need to move on.

[brent]

SU, are you THAT STUPID?

That's right, let that Christian fruit shine. I'm sick of your attitude. You think you're better than everyone else and that your opinion is fact and can't be challenged. Get over yourself and go stuff it.

The bible is plain...do not take it.

That's not what the Bible says, so you're already arguing from a false premise.

If you drive to the physical address of a brick and mortar house and stick a CD in your pocket, or if you go the electronic address of someone's computer in their house and download it, you are not paying for it, the artist is not being paid for it, and God is going to allow the devourer to come reap a bunch of crap in your life. THAT is what would freak me out.

Well, your theology is bad, but I already knew that.

It's not the same. Plain and simple. For one thing, stealing a CD involves other physical properties that are being stolen that aren't related to the music itself such as the tangible CD, the jewel case, the inserts, etc. The music is an intangible that can't be stolen. I'm not sure how having songs on my computer is any different than going to youtube and listening to the song over and over. Or recording what I listen to on the radio. Unless those are somehow crimes now. Either way, I'm not "purchasing" the music or "contributing" to the artist. Which I couldn't afford to do anyways. So, either way, they wouldn't be making money off of me on CD sales.

How about that. SU helped kill Petra. How do you like those apples?

Cute. One problem: I didn't download music until after Petra retired. But keep patting yourself on the back for making faulty assumptions. Problem number two: I've purchased every single new Petra album up through J&H. I plan on purchasing BTTR next week after I get paid. But you're right, I killed Petra. It wasn't the fact that they became stale and obsolete in an ever shrinking market. It was all me.

Torrents with copyright protected material are illegal everywhere. Plain and simple. There are some that exist for a while, until due process has transpired and then they are shut down.

Nope. I've been visiting torrent sites that have been around for 6 or more years. They don't just get "shut down". I've seen a few get wrapped up in litigation, but it's always a murky issue. No one ever completely steps in and say "you're done." The RIAA only goes after someone often enough to try to scare people away from torrents, but they never come out of those settlements with much money because they barely have a leg to stand on. If the laws were clear, the RIAA would be hitting people hard and often. But they don't.

So don't you freakin' tell me that I don't deserve the money I worked for, and paid in advance to Schlitt, Weaver, Bailey, Lawry, and all the rest of the guys, because some law is old and not worded to include modern terms for things. It is sad that "Christians" have become so ignorant to believe that taking from another person, Christians even, is ok, because they are led by the nose, by the government no less. They would rather dance around truth while on the dime of the Christian musician.

Where did I say you didn't deserve any money? Also, I've never listened to PDC, so go take your frustration out on someone else. It has nothing to do with "some old law". It has everything to do with the fact that intellectual property is near impossible to define, nor is it necessarily a God given right. Unfortunately, Western society has distorted the Bible so much that no one really knows what it actually says because they're too busy trying to find Biblical support for the worldview they've already created for themselves.

This is not about my or anyone else's opinion. This is about right and wrong, the law, the bible and you screwing the artists because you are too poor to buy music. That is not anyone's problem but yours. If you don't make enough money, you don't get any. Work harder. Work smarter. But don't steal because you are too broke.

As for me calling you stupid, it was biblical, because it was true. I seem to remember Jesus saying, "Thou fool." I took it easy on ya. Here is my biblical support for calling you or anyone else that does what do stupid:

Proverbs 12:1

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid. (ESV)
Whosoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid (NASB)
Whosoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid (NIV)
Whosoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but those who hate to be rebuked are stupid (NRSV)
Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish. (KJV)
Whosoever loves instruction loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid (NKJ)

Right and wrong has no gray, only black and white. You think you are not stealing unless you take something physical? Not according to all nations who have outlawed torrents with copyright protected material. Not according to the law in the USA. Not according to Petra. Not according to all of the artists suing thieves in court now. You need to understand the laws before you make decisions like that.

Ever hear of Limewire: This is what you see when you click on their webpage:
"ATTENTION
LIMEWIRE IS UNDER A COURT ORDER DATED OCTOBER 26, 2010 TO STOP DISTRIBUTING THE LIMEWIRE SOFTWARE. A COPY OF THE INJUNCTION CAN BE FOUND HERE. LIMEWIRE LLC, ITS DIRECTORS AND OFFICERS, ARE TAKING ALL STEPS TO COMPLY WITH THE INJUNCTION. WE HAVE VERY RECENTLY BECOME AWARE OF UNAUTHORIZED APPLICATIONS ON THE INTERNET PURPORTING TO USE THE LIMEWIRE NAME. WE DEMAND THAT ALL PERSONS USING THE LIMEWIRE SOFTWARE, NAME, OR TRADEMARK IN ORDER TO UPLOAD OR DOWNLOAD COPYRIGHTED WORKS IN ANY MANNER CEASE AND DESIST FROM DOING SO.WE FURTHER REMIND YOU THAT THE UNAUTHORIZED UPLOADING AND DOWNLOADING OF COPYRIGHTED WORKS IS ILLEGAL."

The CD or a paying customer's download receipt is legal license to use the music for your own private use, not for you to distribute or OWN the music. You never OWN it. You own the license (CD/download). The ownership belongs to the copyright owner, which in Petra's case is about 10% Bob and the labels who fronted all of the money to the band, studios, and tour support to bring it all to market.

I spoke with John Lawry about your comments and attitude specifically, and he told me that they consider it stealing and it takes away from their wallets, which pay their bills, feeds their families, and further their ministry. I have a LOOOONG list of secular and Christian artists who say the same thing.

Re: you killing Petra. If you were downloading free Petra music, you contributed to their demise. Why? Lack of sales. Lack of sales is the reason Petra had to quit. So, if you were stealing, you contributed in some way.

The comment about PDC was a demonstration. The point is, if it happens to us on that kind of scale, imagine what it does to other bands higher up the food chain. Imagine what it does to Petra, when they would normally sell 40k albums in the UK, but can no longer get paid, when roughly 80% of Christian music in the UK is stolen. It's even worse in South America. Then everyone wonders why Petra can't make it.

I don't claim to know everything or dispense knowledge or opinion without error. But you are the kettle calling the pot black. This is an open forum. There is free speech most of the time. I exercise that liberty just as you do. When I post, there is no ill will, no malice, no hard feelings received. It is what it is.

[p-freak]

I'm through with this, there's better things to talk about. This isn't solving anything, I'm not going to call someone stupid, If they put that label on their own face, then so be it. I know in my heart what's right and wrong and as long as I live according to how God tells me to and I stay true to my convictions I'll be alright. Those who choose to brush away conviction and try to somehow justify their actions will answer to God for what they do.

I just have to make sure I obey God in my life.

How is this not indirectly calling someone stupid?!?

[brent]

pfreak...don't get down on bake. You can get on me. I was harsh, but truthful.

Look man, read those bible verses. Read about the laws. Read up on all of the bands and labels suing people stealing music. Only a stupid person would continue to live juxtaposed to the law, to the bible, to God, and to the artists that this guy supposedly loves and respects. This is like taking money from the offering plate at church when the pastor preaches. This is just insane that so many people think stealing is ok.

I guess if I download a skin flick to my computer I have not really taken possession of it, since I did not go to the store and buy it. Sunday, when my pastor preaches the Word, I will not have received it until I get the DVD or CD at the church office. It is not mine, I don't have it until I hold it. Wow.

[bakersfieldpethead]

I'm through with this, there's better things to talk about. This isn't solving anything, I'm not going to call someone stupid, If they put that label on their own face, then so be it. I know in my heart what's right and wrong and as long as I live according to how God tells me to and I stay true to my convictions I'll be alright. Those who choose to brush away conviction and try to somehow justify their actions will answer to God for what they do.

I just have to make sure I obey God in my life.

How is this not indirectly calling someone stupid?!?

Anything can be made into something p-freak; it all depends on how deep in between the lines you want to go. Gotta draw the line somewhere.

[rexreed]

It's not typically accepted on most message boards to attack someone personally. Let''s ease away from names, it hurts one's argument when they stoop to names. It's one thing to say that a particular song or law is stupid, but quite different to call someone stupid.
The topic was BTTR Must Be Selling Well. Now it is an argument about intellectual property and large fonts!

Does anyone know how the cd sales are doing?

[p-freak]

You know, Brent. I can understand why this is a big deal for artists such as yourself.

But the problem in this debate is that it's like a trench war. You fire rockets and mustard gas at SU (and sometimes at me) and hope that by shouting loud enough and using strong enough language you're able to blast him off their feet. I have a problem with that.

I don't mind to discuss this issue, but all the replies I've had so far from mainly Bakes, and also from you, don't give me the feeling that we're having a discussion here. Discussing means that you would at least assume that I have good reasons to believe that my own point of view is valid within a Christian and Biblical framework. Hardly anyone here has expressed anything like that towards either SU or myself.

I have a problem with you calling SU stupid and hiding behind Bible verses to justify that.

I hate it when you feel ripped off because people download your product everywhere without paying for it, but don't take it out on SU. Just because you feel ripped off, doesn't mean that you have the truth fully on your side. Please cut some slack here.

[bakersfieldpethead]

I guess very well, according to the numbers

[brent]

You know, Brent. I can understand why this is a big deal for artists such as yourself.

But the problem in this debate is that it's like a trench war. You fire rockets and mustard gas at SU (and sometimes at me) and hope that by shouting loud enough and using strong enough language you're able to blast him off their feet. I have a problem with that.

I don't mind to discuss this issue, but all the replies I've had so far from mainly Bakes, and also from you, don't give me the feeling that we're having a discussion here. Discussing means that you would at least assume that I have good reasons to believe that my own point of view is valid within a Christian and Biblical framework. Hardly anyone here has expressed anything like that towards either SU or myself.

I have a problem with you calling SU stupid and hiding behind Bible verses to justify that.

I hate it when you feel ripped off because people download your product everywhere without paying for it, but don't take it out on SU. Just because you feel ripped off, doesn't mean that you have the truth fully on your side. Please cut some slack here.

I kept all of my arguments within the framework of scripture, quoting scripture that says we are not to steal, we are to pay those that minister to us, and those that minister should reap the reward of the ministry. SU rejects that, calling it incorrect doctrine or something like that. Those are plain as day texts taken in context.

The rebuke was firm and to the neck, but by the book. You must admit, I gave him a while. I did not go right to it. He was given examples and references of why torrents are illegal, downloading copyright protected music is wrong and illegal, and words from the artists, some of which are idolized here, saying they consider it robbery. The S word was personal, which I agree, but stealing is personal. Stealing is stupid. Now, if a person steals, that person is a stealER, a thief. That means he/she is a criminal. Committing crimes, knowing crimes come with a punishment from God, from the law, etc and doing them anyway is...not too smart. Some would say stupid. I know every time I watch COPS, I call all of those ignorant morons who think they can outrun the law, stupid. If that person is warned time and time again, and refuses to change his/her ways, because they do not see it the same way the law, the bible, God and the person they are stealing from sees it, well that is just stupid. They are going to pay a price sooner or later.

For me, I am just beside myself, scratching my head, wondering why someone cannot understand a basic biblical concept, why someone would think it ok to take what is not theirs to take, especially from a Christian that they love. This is just nuts. The thing that got me REALLY torqued was when SU said that he could do it because the law was not clear. Well crap. The law is not clear about many things. It cannot possibly be clear on all things because it cannot see the future. This is where being a Christian and a moral human with common sense comes into play. We cannot wait for the law to tell us what to do. We cannot do everything it says we can do either. Not all lawful things are moral and God glorifying (like iffy tax practices, abortion, gay marriage, etc).
what if the law says relations with animals is ok? Do we really need to go down that road? We cannot pick and choose. It is a matter of living as Jesus would live, doing what the light would do, not doing what the devil does. What does the devil do? He STEALS and destroys. Come on.

Yes, I am passionate about it. I deal with this everyday, not just with artists, but with ministries. I see the money shrinking up. I see artists and all of the associated support services finding it hard to exist. Music is not a right. It is an art, which is a luxury. If you want free music, get the free music from the royalty free sites. Most of it will not be very good. There is a reason it is free most of the time. If you want free music, get it at church. But don't expect free commercial music. That is kind of an oxymoron isn't it? Commercial music is the property of the copyright holder. It is not for people to take and use however they wish. Once we start taking things and making them community property, we have signed up for communism. That sucks. There is no good music there.

I guess it is time to shake the dust from the old Nikes and tread on. SU, hope I don't see your name in the papers in the RIAA lawsuits. Read up people. This is some serious crap.

[bakersfieldpethead]

The music is the stuff we sell, we don't go into the studio to manufacture a CD, Sony, Maxell, Memorex, Virbatem, makes and sells CDs. The artists sells the Music, the songs, the production. That is what the artist and record labels own.

MP3 is an audio-specific format that was designed by the Moving Picture Experts Group as part of its MPEG-1 standard and later extended in MPEG-2 standard.

Just as CDs, Cassettes, Reel to Reel, Lps, 8-track and the Wire were all AUDIO Specific Formats. Nothing is free. Just as you pay to have CDs to put your music on, you pay for the technology to convert your music to mp3s or any other digital format. CDA is a digital format. ipods, zunes and other mp3 players all have to be payed for, just like a CD Player, Cassette Player and Turn Table. The music you hear is the product. The format in which you hear it is the the way it is delivered to you.

[executioner]

Yeah Brent's replies maybe a little harsh but he is right about this issue. Stealing is stealing there is no gray area and I feel the ones that support the other side of the coin think there is or should be a gray area. I just don't see how one can sit there and justify these acts and live with their conscience.