40th Anniversary Tour 2013

[sue d.]

I'm a little confused:

If they had done the Farewell show and gone out with a bang (sort of), then I think we'd all be mostly content and happy with the musical legacy they left us. But having spent the past decade more or less trying to recapture their former glory

Huh? Petra said good-bye in the wee hours of Dec. 31, 2005. It was a very emotional evening... a 'bang,' if you will. Following that, the ONLY times the band reformed was when they were asked - the first time by Rock 'n Vida in Argentina for their World Aids Awareness Day. Petra played a few times in S. America, and twice in the U.S. (I'm talking PETRA, not CLASSIC Petra).

How do you call that "trying to recapture their former glory"? Or are you referring to Classic Petra?

If Petra fans are like Trekkies, I wish Petra had taken a cue from Trek and just *stopped* for a while.

They did!

....But the different lineups ("classic," "farewell," "reunion," "whole wheat," etc) and the "new" albums (which consist mostly of old songs), followed by "remastered" albums, etc...

There are only TWO versions: the 2005 Petra, and the 1985 Petra. There were no CDs from Petra - and two (studio & live) from Classic. I don't consider a remastered CD in the count.

If they wanted to come back after a decent break, then do it with *one* big unified effort: a new album with new material from a consistent lineup.

And after 33 years, just WHO would you pick to be on this 'all-star' consistent line-up album? Some members never even played on an album...

Really - the logistics of what you're asking for is almost impossible.

[brent]

Sue, they should have stopped before 2005. When Bob left they should have stopped. When they did the Petra covers record, I heard the desparation to live. That was really a John Schlitt solo band at that point, and that is what it should have been called. J&H should have been THE comeback album. Petra did not stay gone long enough to create sufficient demand. If they had stayed away until Classic Petra hit the streets, THEN people would have been looking for it more. They would have been saying, "Well, THAT band can still rock, Bob can still rock, I wonder when the other band will do something."

As a result of not quitting sooner, demand for music and shows declined even further and the retirement tour was a whimper. The times I saw them, Wayne was mixing on Bread of Stones blown PA system. It was terrible. I even spoke with Bob and the guys on the phone to help those guys with their DSP settings. Great guys and great story of salvation, but Petra deserved bigger and better. It did not do them justice.

The DVD was just non-eventful. It was not a production that was complimentary to the greatness of the band. It was too short. It did not celebrate all of the incarnations. They should have included everyone for the fans. A band like Petra had enough material, with all of those musicians, for two or three discs. But we didn't get that. There was no big pay-off.

If someone with some cash could have pulled it together, and the band members could forget all of their crap for one night, and played a Gaither type show before some cameras, the THAT would have been the Farewell DVD collection to have. But again, like so many times, they get in with some bunch of jackasses who mishandle them, and treat them like used up call girls. Petra has come close to greatness but has not really had someone to help them maximize opportunities they so rightly deserved. As a result we have had crap albums and tired shows that fail to deliver a quality product and a sense of excitement.

All of that was the fan in me talking. Now, if someone else had posted all of this, I would give the musicians, promotors and touring engineer, tech director and managers perspectives to counter all of this.

[sue d.]

Man, can you get any more harsh? Everyone has a right to their opinion, but if any 'uninitiated fan' would happen across this board - he certainly would not look at you as a FAN, based on your commentary. I don't think a band member would look at anyone who says the band should have quit a long time ago as a fan either. That being said, I understand what you're trying to say - but it reads very harsh.

Sue, they should have stopped before 2005. When Bob left they should have stopped.

WHY? Because Bob wasn't on the stage? He was STILL writing, still in the studio; he was still part of Petra. Even Bob has said that Petra is more than the sum of one man... (my paraphrase).

Let's see.... had the band quit in 1995 these albums would not exist:
No Doubt
Petra Praise 2: We Need Jesus
God Fixation
Double Take
Revival
Jekyll & Hyde
Farewell

Now I KNOW there are various opinions on each of these, and maybe some people would be glad that these albums would not exist. But there are just as many who have personal connections with a song or songs, and to say that Petra should have quit after Wake Up Call is saying that the songs that have become synonymous with Petra from this era, namely "No Doubt," "We Need Jesus," even "Jekyll & Hyde" have no meaning and should have been tossed out the door.

When they did the Petra covers record, I heard the desparation to live.

Seriously? Double Take was made because Petra still owed another album to Word, which wanted to turn out another compilation album. Petra decided to give them their compilation in a form that was different, and NOT just a bunch of existing songs thrown on a collection. It had nothing to do with being desperate to continue on.

That was really a John Schlitt solo band at that point, and that is what it should have been called.

If that's the case, then it would have been John Schlitt Band performing Bob Hartman songs? Bob was still the mastermind behind the music, with Word having the final say when it comes to style. Is it your contention that BOB ON STAGE is what makes Petra PETRA? Without his stage presence Petra is nothing? (no matter that Bob was still involved behind the scenes) John is chopped liver?

J&H should have been THE comeback album.

It can only come back as much as the label decides to invest in it. Which, in this case, was minimal.

Petra did not stay gone long enough to create sufficient demand. If they had stayed away until Classic Petra hit the streets, THEN people would have been looking for it more.

There was 25 years between Classic's 1985-2010 return. It was like a whole new band; it was not Petra, per se. It was CLASSIC Petra. Following the same logic, you're saying that if Petra quit in 1995, in 2020 they would be welcomed with open arms? Or if they returned after only 15 years, and came back in 2010 people would have stood up and took notice?

As a result of not quitting sooner, demand for music and shows declined even further and the retirement tour was a whimper.

A whimper? I have the dates they played in 2005 - it was a lot more than a whimper. I can post them if anyone is interested.

The DVD was just non-eventful. It was not a production that was complimentary to the greatness of the band. It was too short. It did not celebrate all of the incarnations. They should have included everyone for the fans. A band like Petra had enough material, with all of those musicians, for two or three discs. But we didn't get that. There was no big pay-off.

It wasn't meant to be a history or a 'celebration of all incarnations.' It was meant to be a live recording. We're even lucky to have it, based on the amount of cash outlay Inpop put into the band.

As a result we have had crap albums and tired shows that fail to deliver a quality product and a sense of excitement.

OK, now you're going too far. Not everyone likes every CD or song, but to say the performances were TIRED?? NOT exited? There are tons of bootleg video on YouTube - prove to me WHAT show was tired and boring. I want to see it for myself.

I'll defend anyone's right to speak their mind but remember: this is a PUBLIC forum and the public can read everything. I'm very glad Petra (for the most part) never visits. Threads like this would be very disconcerting. However, there IS a band member that does check in on occasion -hence the "Friendly reminder about conduct" thread that less an 100 persons have read (see top sticky thread).

It says: "Just a reminder that pioneers of Petra read the Petrazone. So everything you say about someone being old, or making assumptions about the band are hurtful. Don’t abuse the privilege of online anonymity."

[rexreed]

No way Petra should have called it quits when Brent said- it's just his opinion. Had Petra called it quits then THis board more than likely would not be what it is. The band would have been out of the memory of most by the time AOL got half of America signed up with an internet account. I really enjoy a lot of the post Unseen Power Petra. Could J & H have been marketed a little stronger? Perhaps but Inpop is teeny tiny and the industry was already in the nose dive that continues... so it would have been a miracle if a third "heyday" were to come from that album. I love me some Petra! (even Just Reach Out on DT)

[brent]

Sue, I gave die hard fans points of view all in one post. You missed the last part of my post....

No, they could not have quit right then and there. But they could have rocked it out. The internet and all of this stuff still would have happened. There are countries without internet, and countries that block access to american and religious sites, so I think the whole "the internet is essential to Petra" thing is not valid. There aren't that many international participants here as proof and Petra is packing out international venues, while the USA has the most exposure to Petra and turn out is exponentially less.

Sue, I can see and have been told why things happened the way they did. You know stuff we don't as well. Remember Sue, you are on your side, doing what you do. I think you underestimate the fandom, what fans expect and fans think. Fans don't have to accept whatever is done by any band/artist. They don't accept it and they leave, just like they have left Petra throughout the years.

Nobody wanted Petra to just die. I didn't. But, from a hard rock fans perspective, it would have been better to go out on top than give in and suck at being something their weren't. It would have been better to give a J&H record, than to give in and alienate the fan base. It would have been better to go out big than to go out playing small church gymnasiums, playing on a blown PA, with Wayne Saboa "mixing" and such. We wanted them to have a really big rockin' album and tour. If you don't make people miss you, they will wish you would go away at some point. That was the point.

Don't be so defensive. You are not on trial. Nobody is. But seriously, you have to set aside the mother hen hat for a moment and look at the sum total of Petra's catalog. You can't tell me that the body work isn't confusing to fans toward the end, and some of it is a let down. Has AC/DC changed gears and done a fad-noise record? No. Did AC/DC do an acoustic remix of their stuff? No. Why. It would SUCK. Petra is an AC/DC of Christian music. Change the name. Petra means rock, not sizzle and squeak. At some point, someone in the ivory tower has to look out and see what works for others and hop on that. At some point, someone has to look out and see what sucks and stop that. Aside from Eric Clapton's MTV acoustic concert, I can't think of any other artist on the planet that has had luck with that type of acoustic remix release. Fans do not care whether the band owes a record and the record company is satan. All that weak cover record did was put nails in the momentum.

Ok, time out. The guys have to eat and pay their bills. We get that. I hope WE get that. Ok. Time in.

From my side of things, working with churches, entertainment, blah, blah, blah...I see how things go and how bands cannot always do what they want. Bands get tired of people, music, approaches, burned in contracts, etc and need to change. Fine. Bob wanted/needed to be home. Great. Nothing wrong with that. But to a fan, Petra was not Petra without the only original member, writer, guitarist, landmark icon on stage. None of the John bands were as talented or musically deep. John did not like that the young guys were not good enough to play Bob's parts, or play with the same soul. I didn't either. Those bands were John solo bands to me. Sue, you aren't a musician, and you admit that you don't dig all of the harder guitar music. But let me tell you, those bands were like someone handing me a strange, cheap Peavey Strat instead of my perfectly set up 335. Yeah, I will make noise, play the notes, but it is not the same feel, feedback, emotion or tone to me or to the crowd. it is obvious through the music when people are missing. From a fan's perspective, it was like Journey without Neal Schon. It just wouldn't be right, and it wasn't. Bob is Bob. People love Bob. Bob has to stay....to the die hard fans...especially those of us who play/know/love guitars.

If J&H could have been the last album for Bob on tour, I could live without the majority of those records after 1995. No Doubt would be a hard one to live without. We are bickering over unchangeable events, but if I would have had the money back then, I would have gone out with a big rock record that would have become a lost gem, rediscovered by people today, and celebrated as a great classic. It would have been a loss back then because of grunge and the collapse of arena rock. Revival...BIG LET DOWN, God Fixation...meh...nothing stellar. Too CCM Nashville. AC/DC didn't do Nashville.

Re: Classic Petra. They missed the boat on that one. There is a cycle for playing music on the radio, working back in the oldies. CP was well outside of the cycle for that. They had offers to strike while the iron was hot a long time ago. They waited too long. That was a different band and they should have hopped on it. If you make people wait too long, they lose interest. If they would have had the right people behind them this time, and other things would have worked as they should have, they might have been on that wave longer.

Re: Sues comment about the all star line up and people not playing on records. A LIVE show is what we are concerned with. It makes no difference who recorded and who didn't. There aren't a whole lot of bands back in the day that even recorded on their own records. Fast, controllable, session musicians were used. But since we are talking about Petra, some of the Petra albums had non-Petra members recording. Few people know or care about that. They assume Mark and Louie were playing on those, because they were in the live band. So, the all inclusive show would invite EVERYONE who has recorded or played live.

Farewell wasn't really a record. If they could have built some demand, by being missed, maybe instead of a farewell in 2005, it would have been a decade end to a world without Petra, and the band could have had their "second wind", playing all this time when the other secular counterparts have been cashing in.

Again, this is all one mad scientist's opinion. It is easy to Monday morning quarter back. But when I see a trend, and that trend is working for others, and the band I love is not doing it, and spokespeople/managers/agents are looking around with their hands in the air, unable to figure out why things aren't working, I have say something. Jesus was harsh too.

[misterbobthetomato13]

Simply by the things you have said to me over the years (I had forgotten about you) and what I have just finished reading here, Brent...all I can say is this:

You are the type of Christian that pushes a person like me away from Jesus. You have wonderful, eloquent and (frequently) accurate points to make. However, they are always...
...always...
...tagged with condescension or sniping of a personal nature.

"Only a musician would understand" translates to "I, Brent, am a musician and you are not so, therefore, you cannot fathom this subject matter." Not only is it rude and inconsiderate, it is also a bit naive to presume that you are the only "musician" sitting here behind the keys on a music-related forum (some of US have done some time in the business too...if you look close enough at your own music collections, I'll bet you might even find me or a former colleague who was a touch more successful). Your attempts to be helpful are always hidden within your "expertise" so you can be better.

I was raised that folks like you were to be pitied...or smacked upside your head with "what's wrong with you?" added for good measure.

Well...guess what my friend? You "here's yer sign!" You need some Humble Pie right about now. Eat up!

p.s. Anyone who thinks I'm out of line - of course I'm out of line. I just don't care right now.

[brent]

Bob, I am not being as snippy and condescending as you read. I made more than enough effort to relate to people who are not musicians, are not fans for the same reason, etc. Sue isn't a musician. That doesn't mean anything more than what I said. She knows she's not. There are key phrases in my delivery that should take her back to specific conversations we have had in person, on the phone and on-line. These are key phrases she would remember. If she is honest, and if she remembers them, she will know what I was hinting at.

Look. People have different personalities. Fine. We have our differences. To say that I would push people away from Jesus is more harsh than anything I have ever said here. There are lots of people who would say the opposite of you. I may not be the type that would have led YOU to Jesus. This much is true. But time is short and the truth should be told when it should be told. I am a black and white, do or die, put up or shut up person. My personality is not for the faint of heart. Those are the types of people that I resonate with and those would be the people who have listened. Consequently, many of the people reached are not Americans. They are people, in some cases, in wars, third world countries, etc. When I set out to do something, and I believe in it, I do it 100%. People who choose to live in their own weak filth and sorrow, without a game plan and initiative, make me physically ill. So yeah, I cannot deal with everyone. I don't run with bloodsuckers.

You have to understand, Petra has been mishandled and borderline abused by AN INDUSTRY OF WHORES. It infuriates me how their own labels have set them up and actually invested resources in their failure. Some of the band's fate was in their hands. After all they had to agree to things to exist. There wasn't much Christian going on in the CCM industry when Petra was not on top and they were not making people filthy rich. I know too many stories. Sue knows more than I do probably. It makes me mad that John HAD to keep going, that the band had so much debt, and that he had to find other ways to make money, instead of being able to call it quits earlier, and plan a big return. It makes me mad that (arguably) the best rock album since 96 was released as the final hoorah and not the "weeeeeee're baaaaaack" in 2005. But, we can't re-write history, and not everyone is twisted out of shape because I wish them to have more success, more music and more touring NOW. The end result is what is important.

Some people here are mad because I don't worship the band and think that just because their name is on a CD that the contents are good. Everyone makes a pooper every now and then. But I can't say I don't like it? Please. That is kind of promoting rank and file forum mandated idol worship. THAT is jacked up.
Others are mad, because I (and others) are not band management Kool Aid drinkers. I do not believe what professional liars (sales people) tell me until I see it happen. There have been many people who have given truth, and the truth eventually played out, but Kool Aid drinkers were snowed by someone deliberately or by error, and we were the bad guys for going against the flow. Did we get a sorry? Nope. That is jacked up.

[sue d.]

Would'a, should'a, could'a done this and that
Don't wanna live life with another regret
Would'a, should'a, could'a made another choice
I can see more the older I get
Would'a, should'a, could'a said something more
But it's too late - there's a knock at the door
Would'a, should'a, could'a won't change a thing
The here and now is waiting

I think we all want the band to have as much success in the near future (define that word however you want) as possible... the past can't be changed, but the future CAN be planned carefully & prayerfully with the best interest of the band and the members in mind. There are no mis-managers looking for a quick buck or a record label looking to milk the band for all it's worth. The perceived 'worth' (from a financial perspective) that Petra had in the early '90s is no longer there and the 'industry' really doesn't care much any more. We all know that.

Today there are only a few people involved (management-booking wise) who want to do the BEST for the band; they know that Petra's not a big cash cow, but a viable band with a history of changing lives with their music - and yes, with their personal members as well. It's a new chapter in a long novel called PETRA.

I think this says it best (by a fan on the Petra Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/Petraband):

It's not about old members or new members but praising God in Christ's name. We're not living in the past for the Lord but in the present and eternity. We're ready to be encouraged in His name and pressing on!!

[executioner]

In my assessment from the last few posts I would probably fall in line more with Brent(not everything) than anybody else; but at the same time would also agree some with Sue, Misterbob, and Rex. The area where I agree with Brent is that maybe Petra should have taken a break after the WUC Tour or at the very least brought out a no hold barred rock album like JAH right after WUC and gone to the house after that. I know there are a lot of mixed feelings about the No Doubt album, but I'm here to tell you that album killed the rock fan base for the band; I know of several die hard Petra fans that left because of No Doubt and basically have never returned. Petra had a lot of fans that loved the hard edge style that was 87-93 and at the same time were into stuff like AC/DC, Metallica, and the harder edge Christian stuff and when No Doubt came out were like "what happen?" What is this?" I know I was one and only hearing PP2(top 5 album for me) brought me back, but right there Petra lost all creditability as a hard rock band with that large fan base.

The other issue that Brent was correct on was the mixmatched albums from 1993-2003; IMO 3 of Petra's top 5 albums are in that era(WUC, PP2, JAH) but also in the same time frame they bring out some bottom feeders(No Doubt, GFixation, DT, & Revival) this confusion over that ten year span was the main issue for putting Petra in the ground; NO ARTIST from any era can do something like this and survive.

Brent can be harsh at times but he tells it like it is and also tells the truth, and I do feel that is what the members of Petra would rather hear, then something along the lines that we love everything and everything is right & magical in the world of Petra. NOBODY should take anything personal by what is said in a public forum.

[Shell]

NOBODY should take anything personal by what is said in a public forum.

That is certainly the truth. We need to keep in mind that we shouldn't make assumptions when we can't see or hear someone. Brent can be blunt sometimes, but I've come to appreciate his straightforwardness. I'd much rather deal with that sort of thing than with someone who is a backstabber.

He's right about the idea that we all have different backgrounds and different interests. Someone who works in the music industry would understand certain aspects of how it works than someone who doesn't, just the way someone who teaches would have a better understanding of how the educational system works and so on. He's right about how bands change over the years and bandmembers come and go. A lot of this boils down to personal preference, and while that does have its place, in the big scheme of things, personal preference isn't a big deal.

He's also right about being careful about not worshipping bandmembers. I can saw with a certain amount of confidence I've been around John enough over the years to know he's not a saint. (And that's not a complaint or criticism, it's just an observation). I haven't been around the others as much, but I would guess they probably aren't either, and as far as I know they haven't claimed to be. I think it tends to be fans that give them sainthood status. Just saying.

When it gets right down to it, it's GOD that matters, and He can and does use imperfect people to communicate the Gospel.

[BForm]

Wow Mr. Bob! Talk about personal attacks. So am I to assume you have now made shipwreck of your faith, being that Brent is more powerful than the Holy Spirit? That was an extremely shallow attack. I think that's exactly what Jesus had in mind when he said "judge not lest you be judged."

Brent, I really appreciate your insight and your candor. If it wasn't for you I wouldn't find the content of the zone nearly as interesting. Though there's no doubt in my mind that if you and I lived close by we'd have our share of heated arguments. But then we'd laugh about it afterwards and respect each others opinions.

You're right about Jesus and strong words. Paul is another one. I wonder how many Christians have blotted Galations 5:12 out of their bibles because their theology has no room for talk like this?

BTW, I found myself agreeing with most of what you said. Stick around. You're appreciated.

[leonardo d.]

Brent has said everything that I've been thinking for a long time. Petra should have taken a hiatus around '95, stayed away for several years, and then came back with a killer rock album. Like the old saying goes, "absence makes the heart grow fonder". Just my thoughts.

[petraman]

If anything I would love to see the Dream Team one last time.

[rexreed]

I don't remember anyone back in 1995 that thought Petra should "hang it up." In 2013 it sure is easy to "Monday Morning quarterback" the career of a band. Sheesh you people really are something!

[sue d.]

Ditto that one.

Exe wrote:
" NOBODY should take anything personal by what is said in a public forum."

Really? What if you are the person/band they are all talking about???

http://thepetrazone.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56883