Concerns

Talk about Petra albums, songs, and concerts.
wildmanpetra
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Concerns

Post by wildmanpetra » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:58 am

Hello All, I have been following the zone for a few years now, and have been a strong Petra fan since 1985. I have seen them in concert a total of 16 times. What really brought me to Petra at first was their music, but secondly was their message. I always appreciated the solid scriptural lyrical content, and how clearly it was stated at every concert why they were there, and they gave an invitation every time for people to accept Christ. But, now here are some concerns, I know these have been touched on in the zone before, but just thought I would share my perspective, and see if anyone might agree:
1. Why is Petra doing what they are doing now? At every show it was always for the ministry. However, I must say I was very disappointed that Farewell did not have a strong testimony, nor invitation for others to know Christ. (Same with BTTR Live) Unlike what we did have with CITAS.
2. John’s solo career: John’s solo career has been great, ( I saw him live on the SHAKE tour) But, with his recent recordings through Sekulow and this new tour with Elefante, I am concerned about the purpose. I have supported John for many years, but is ministry still at the forefront? Or now is it just enjoying good wholesome entertainment?
I am a full time Pastor and I firmly believe that a message of ministry and the Gospel is needed now more than ever before. I just hope that John’s ministry isn’t going down the road where ministry, salvation, the Gospel message take a back seat.
You are free to disagree and that is fine, I am just simply concerned, and I hope I am wrong…..
Thoughts?
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Re: Concerns

Post by Shell » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:51 pm

You make some interesting points. I think Petra has always had a heart for pointing others to Jesus, but there is no way they could possibly keep up with everyone who goes to their concerts. I do believe they have encouraged people to connect with a local church. Concerts are just the tip of the iceberg; there has to be something after what happens at the concert, and that isn't Petra's responsibility.

It's normal for bands to change over the years too; they are people like anyone else and have stuff to deal with. God is doing things in their lives too. There are seasons for everything.
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Re: Concerns

Post by brent » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:15 pm

I think there is huge assumption that there is only ministry through a testimonies and altar calls. Not so. There is also a huge assumption that none of this is happening. Not so. John gives a nice little talk at his shows. All of the times I have seen John it has been close to the same, getting much more abbreviated because the people knew the spill.

Now, the last "we quit" tour was rather weak in promotion and attendance. Most of the shows were small, in churches, and attended by Petra fans...who are Christians. At this point in their career, everyone knows the same old songs, same old set lists, same old guys (more or less). Existing fans where there...to see Petra before they quit. There is plenty of bible in the songs and probably nothing that the average attender didn't already know. Petra would be preaching to the choir.

Bands are not churches or para-church ministries. They are bands who record music to sell and support themselves, play shows for money to support themselves. Their success is limited to public acceptance. If the band does not sell, they do not exist. Short and simple. If their product ministers, so be it. A product does not have to be by a Christian band or have that label to minister to me in some way. I can learn from many different types of music, even when they are not openly God centered.

Don't put so much pressure on them. You are going to let yourself down. We all know pastors and musicians (un ordained people with a microphone and people's attention) can have an impact on stage, but that is not real ministry. Ministry is not the 30 minutes on the stage. It is the way they (and we) live out in the world.
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Re: Concerns

Post by wildmanpetra » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:37 pm

brent wrote:I think there is huge assumption that there is only ministry through a testimonies and altar calls. Not so. There is also a huge assumption that none of this is happening. Not so. John gives a nice little talk at his shows. All of the times I have seen John it has been close to the same, getting much more abbreviated because the people knew the spill.

Now, the last "we quit" tour was rather weak in promotion and attendance. Most of the shows were small, in churches, and attended by Petra fans...who are Christians. At his point in their career, everyone knows the same old songs, same old set lists, same old guys (more or less). Existing fans where there...to see Petra before they quit. There is plenty of bible in the songs and probably nothing that the average attender didn't already know. They would be preaching to the choir.
Understood. This is exactly what I believe Petra's approach became. But, why not end on the same note of presenting the Gospel and offering others the opportunity of knowing Christ? To assume this message is not needed because the venue was or mostly existing fans, I believe is too presumptuous. I agree ministry isn't only through testimonies and altar calls, there is discipleship etc. I also understand that John is still giving talks etc. And that is always encouraging. But, I always knew at every concert, be it Petra, Whitecross, Barren Cross etc. I always knew at the end would be the presentation of the Gospel and the opportunity was clearly given. Though it is good to have Bible truth in songs, salvation just seems to be missing. Is any band doing this anymore?
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Re: Concerns

Post by pmal » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:45 pm

I agree with all that's been said but I sure do miss "Uncle Bob" and some of the other breaks between the songs where the band members would talk about the songs and where they come from. I guess that's hard to do if you aren't releasing new stuff. I think Classic Petra did do a lot more of that than in the recent farewell past but I could handle the more talking bit approach. Just an FYI, in case you didn't know, Bob always gives a gospel presentation at the end of the concerts during the encore and the gospel message is proclaimed, even if everyone raises their hand and says they are a Christian. You can see that on several of the youtube videos and even in the farewell concert shows, he also gave gospel presentations. I think trodland's from norway on petrafiles.com shows his talk. So, if you think they've abandoned that, you are wrong about and that is still happening.

However, there's also nothing wrong with just the wholesome entertainment part you mention either. As long as the guys are not sacrificing anything (and I don't believe they are), that can lead to money which can lead to the things that we want more of, above. I also wish we and the guys were all millionaires and it wasn't about having to play only certain gigs in order to not lose money, but it is what it is and I understand that part of it.
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Re: Concerns

Post by brent » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:59 pm

There is a complete lack of education and oversight of the "industry". There are not accuracy or quality controls. I consider it all entertainment. There is a bunch of immature and heretical crap out there.
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Re: Concerns

Post by executioner » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:01 pm

brent wrote:I think there is huge assumption that there is only ministry through a testimonies and altar calls. Not so. There is also a huge assumption that none of this is happening. Not so. John gives a nice little talk at his shows. All of the times I have seen John it has been close to the same, getting much more abbreviated because the people knew the spill.

Now, the last "we quit" tour was rather weak in promotion and attendance. Most of the shows were small, in churches, and attended by Petra fans...who are Christians. At this point in their career, everyone knows the same old songs, same old set lists, same old guys (more or less). Existing fans where there...to see Petra before they quit. There is plenty of bible in the songs and probably nothing that the average attender didn't already know. Petra would be preaching to the choir.

Bands are not churches or para-church ministries. They are bands who record music to sell and support themselves, play shows for money to support themselves. Their success is limited to public acceptance. If the band does not sell, they do not exist. Short and simple. If their product ministers, so be it. A product does not have to be by a Christian band or have that label to minister to me in some way. I can learn from many different types of music, even when they are not openly God centered.

Don't put so much pressure on them. You are going to let yourself down. We all know pastors and musicians (un ordained people with a microphone and people's attention) can have an impact on stage, but that is not real ministry. Ministry is not the 30 minutes on the stage. It is the way they (and we) live out in the world.
Nicely said!
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Re: Concerns

Post by executioner » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:09 pm

brent wrote:There is a complete lack of education and oversight of the "industry". There are not accuracy or quality controls. I consider it all entertainment. There is a bunch of immature and heretical crap out there.

Very few out there now that I would hang anything on. Petra, Fireflight, Bloodgood, Skillet, and yes Stryper all give the plan of salvation at all or most of their shows. I've seen all these groups several times in the last few years(except Bloodgood; saw them twice in the early 90's) and even Stryper quoted Scripture and had a prayer in the 2 shows I've seen them since 2006.
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Re: Concerns

Post by gman » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:49 am

I saw Petra last year. I know Bob and John spoke, but I don't recall what they said. I'm betting that they chose their words based on knowing that it would be a mostly friendly and Christian audience.
I don't go to many concerts any more, but I do go to a festival every year. It is one of the oldest and largest, and has always been one of the most Christ centered. They've always placed a priority on preaching the word and giving the gospel, and building up the Body of Christ. There are a lot of Christian bands with stellar testimonies and ministries, and rock solid lyrics. There are also a lot of bands that have a positive message that are using the Christian market as a place to sell more music, or as a stepping stone to something else. That said, I used to get really bent out of shape when the festival would book bands or artists that brought nothing to the table beyond a positive message (Stacie O, Switchfoot, Owl City come to mind), but I've come to realize that from a marketing and sales perspectice, people like the music of those artists. More tickets will be sold and more people will come, and that ultimately means more people being exposed to good Christian music and the gospel message.
Just some thoughts that came to mind. I think at a John and John show, it won't be a secret where those guys stand. I have John E's solo albums, and the early Mastedon stuff. I've read John E interviews. I think his testimony, and the message in his songs are great. Hopefully the Kansas connection sells more tickets and makes the shows financially viable, so more people can be exposed to a Christian message.
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Re: Concerns

Post by Thief » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:09 pm

Well, other than what has been said by some of you, I'll just say the following...

I saw John live in the late 90's and he did make an altar call, even though the concert was held at a church and most of the audience was Christian. That said, I can say that after autograph signing, I did ask for him to pray for me and he did.

I also saw Petra live during the Revival tour, and they also made a call and made a prayer for the audience in the end.

As for the Sekulow/Elefante project, I don't know what's the focus of it, but the three of them are Christian, so I would need more details as for what the specific concern is.

Finally, about the Farewell recording, I do think they were under a lot of pressure from the label to keep the album to a minimum length. They even cut 2-3 songs from it, so there's that.
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Re: Concerns

Post by bakersfieldpethead » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:19 pm

You have to remember Churches and Promoters are changing too, so it would depend on where you are seeing them sing.
There are Churches and Promoters that don't want the artist to do an alter call, you have churches that would rather ask people if they want to join their Church instead of asking if they know Jesus

There are more and more differences between Churches today than there were in the 80s and 90s. Churches I was able to perform in one way 10 years ago are not Churches I can perform in the same way today (If I can still perform in them at all anymore) because new pastors come in or the old pastors change their way of doing things. I have promoters tell me today what they want in the concert. Things have changed a lot from 20 years ago.
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Re: Concerns

Post by brent » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:12 am

Yep, It's easy to broad brush and blame the artist when the artist goes where there is money to be an attraction for people. The attraction has to change to meet the demands of the buyer. I remember when The Imperials w/Russ Taff performed at ORU in Tulsa. They sang O' Buddha. They had to change Charismatic references to another denominational name to accommodate. Look at all of the Gaither people on the stage at the same time. You have people who do not believe in the Trinity, people that do, people who speak in tongues and say you MUST do it to be saved and people that don't. You have people who are in the business because it is business and those who are saved. There are all kinds of concessions people have to make when performing for cash, so they can keep that cash and not alienate themselves and the audience.
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Re: Concerns

Post by wildmanpetra » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:47 am

Thanks to everyone, all responses have been very helpful for me to think through this. If what I am understanding it true (concerning, the need for cash, promoters etc. has much say in what a band does or doesn't do) is it safe to say that altar calls and strong salvation testimonies were done because they were ENCOURAGED more in the 80s and 90's? Or was it the bands passion at the time and was PERMITTED? This is the dilemma that I am hearing. Forgive me because I am somewhat naive when it comes to CCCM from an artist perspective.
I played guitar in bands through high school and college but never got to that "dealing with promoter stage." I guess I am wondering how much of the altar calls and plan of salvation was sincere (not just speaking of Petra) and how much of it was the "thing to do."
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Re: Concerns

Post by petranite » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:52 am

I just want to add one thing to everything that has been said. In my time working on setting up the Rock the Halls show inKansas City I ad several phone calls directly with John Elefante and I can say that he DIRECTLY brought up wanting to tie in salvation and spiritual growth into the concert which could/would include an invitation to accept/embrace (whatever language you prefer) Christ as savior. It is something we talked about collaboratively in how to most effectively present the gospel for the type of show/concert/event/ministry we were doing for this show. Additionally John Schlitt makes it clear in his rider and contract that the venue/church/promoter provide follow up workers/alter call workers/volunteers/counselors for his show if that is going to be a part of it. From my perspective the ONLY way a call for salvation DOES NOT happen at their shows is if the promotor or event does not want it. John & John have made it abundantly clear that they prefer and want it to happen both in conversation and in writing.

Personally I come from a charismatic background and have been an evangelist on the road. I have often been invited to speak at multiple denominations (not religions) that do not believe what i personally believe but out of respect and christian service I refrain from speaking or doing something they may not agree with or be uncomfortable with. So I go to encourage,uplift, and minister on the areas we have agreement on. John & John I believe both have this mentality that if a particular promotor or venue does not want that then they are respectful and will encourage/uplift and challenge those there however they can without causing issues and maintaining a good christian witness.
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Re: Concerns

Post by gman » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:00 am

Personally, I would say that in many cases giving or not giving the Gospel or having an altar call is a reflection of the Artist. Where their heart is at, or perhaps what their beliefs are on the matter.
One band that I played with, we did a show that was arranged by a good friend of mine that was also in the band. A couple of the other guys in the band got really upset that the youth in attendance were instructed to be on their best behavior for the speaker and altar call that followed the music, and to pay attention to the speaker, but they were not told anything in regard to the band. Most of the kids were disengaged during the music.
Those other band members and some of the crew decided to be disrespectful to the speaker, and the presentation of Gospel. In trying to explain to my friend why I thought they didn't really have a problem with being on stage and tearing down equipment while the guy was speaking, I said that they came from a theological background where having an altar call was basically taboo. Essentially that part of the evening was not important in their mind. Also, I have attended Baptist churches where you don't really get an altar call, raising of the hands, or a plan of salvation, because they hold to a Calvinist or Sovereign grace view of salvation.
That being said, I went to lot of concerts back in the day and heard a lot of altar calls, and the venue didn't matter. There are still a lof of bands that give out the Gospel. But again, to my point about it being a reflection of the artist, when I go to the music festival every year I can tell you which bands would likely give out the Gospel on their own tours, and which ones would likely just give you positive entertainment.
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