I know we've been over this before but...

Talk about Petra albums, songs, and concerts.
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gman
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I know we've been over this before but...

Post by gman » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:41 am

It's not clear to me. I'm listening to the track of Get On Your Knees that P-freak posted, and it's a fun listen. Lot's going on drum wise. I understand that the 'Brothers Elefants' used electronic drums for the recording. Here's what I've missed along the way. Did Louie play at some point and then they swapped what he played with electronic sounds, did someone else play, or was the drum part a John and Dino creation? It seems more complicated than what your average Joe could program on a computer, or however they did it back then.
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Re: I know we've been over this before but...

Post by Mountain Man » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:24 pm

As I understand it -- and I could be wrong -- but Louie would play, then they would lay individual drum sounds, hit for hit, over what Louie had played. At least that was how the Elefantes would work. I'm pretty sure we're hearing Louie's actual performance on Wakeup Call.
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Re: I know we've been over this before but...

Post by Dan » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:02 pm

Was this a time thing getting the album out ASAP? nothing wrong with Louie's studio stuff right?
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Re: I know we've been over this before but...

Post by gman » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:21 pm

My understanding was that the had Louie play, then replaced his stuff with digital sounds, hit for hit as was mentioned, in order to get the bigger sound they were looking for. Coulf have been a budget thing too; not wanting to spend the time and money to get a bigger sound from the live kit.
What's going on drum wise does sound like it was created by Louie, or another drummer with significant skill.
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Re: I know we've been over this before but...

Post by Mountain Man » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:31 pm

Dan wrote:Was this a time thing getting the album out ASAP? nothing wrong with Louie's studio stuff right?
It's a studio technique to give the drums more "punch".
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Re: I know we've been over this before but...

Post by Dan » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:34 pm

That makes sense. On the backstage pass video Louie says in the studio "I'm punching it hard man, you might have to give me more" but I am not sure that might be in regards to the cymbals. I have just started listening to Beyond Belief after a 6 year break from the album... amazing album.
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Re: I know we've been over this before but...

Post by brent » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:20 pm

Actually, they did not have Digital Audio Workstations like we have today. The systems that were around were very crude. The only way common folk had sound replacement was with Roger Nichols Wendell. He was the first to make it happen. The other way was to play them in by hand, triggering samples from a Roger Linn or Akai sampler.

From what Louie and John Lawry told me, everything was sequenced. Louie did over-dub. This is easy to tell in some cases, because the songs have little to no swing in them. Everything is tick-tock. The first album without any real drums or playing from Louie was PPTRCO. John Lawry sequenced that whole thing on the cheap. Wake Up call was the first album, from beginning to end, that was all Louie.

There are videos of Louie overdubbing cymbal hits and syncopated stuff for the E Bros.

Louie is very opinionated. In addition for needing to keep up with Mutt Lange and Def Leppard, writing the songs and tracking them first was an easy way to side skirt that issue and get done faster.
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Re: I know we've been over this before but...

Post by brent » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:23 pm

Dan wrote:That makes sense. On the backstage pass video Louie says in the studio "I'm punching it hard man, you might have to give me more" but I am not sure that might be in regards to the cymbals. I have just started listening to Beyond Belief after a 6 year break from the album... amazing album.
Sounds like he is asking for more of the tracks he is overdubbing in his monitor mix so he hear and then lay back a little. Notice how Dino is giving him instructions on what the track is doing.
Louie is a finesse drummer and does not like to play forcefully. He hits hard enough as it is. You can tell a good drummer his heads. Louie's hits are consistent and he plays in the pocket well, when he has enough in his cans. I found this out quickly. We went a whole day with too little volume in his cans and he finally said something late in the day. Here I was trying not to hurt his ears. He must of thought he had all I could give. We could go to 11 and we did.

Keep in mind, they staged a bit for the video. There is so much tedious work that is really far from interesting happening in the studio. If people found out the bass lines and drums were artificial, they might croak. So, don't put a whole lot into what you see. They would not all be tricked out in stage clothes, hair spray, etc for example.
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Re: I know we've been over this before but...

Post by sue d. » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:18 pm

I never saw an "instrumental session," but I did sit in on one of John's recording sessions. That day (my birthday - what a unique present!) he was doing "Hope That Saves the World."

I couldn't believe the number of times Dan made John sing the same phrase until he got out of John exactly what he wanted. Tedious, I suppose, but really interesting to someone who never saw/heard a session before.
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Re: I know we've been over this before but...

Post by fiendik » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:11 pm

There are such things as electronic drumsets - which are played just the same as a standard drumset, but don't actually make the sound. It only sends signals to a synth unit, which in turn makes a sound. Thus you have an electronic drum sound without the tedious programming required for the old all-electronic systems. I don't know what Petra actually did, but I've heard of this being done elsewhere.
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Re: I know we've been over this before but...

Post by brent » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:22 pm

The only time Louie played an electronic kit (Yamaha) was when it was integrated with his acoustic kit, on the last tour with GXV. Those are what you hear on CITAS. He called them space drums, because of the sounds they made, and he hated them.
The electronic kits today are lots better. Drummers still gripe about them. They are a different beast. But in live sound, most live drums on major tours are integrating triggers and samples on some level. Tommy Lee and Frank Beard play electronic kits that look like acoustic kits.

The Electronic kits used a sound module, and the sounds were not that good back then. The pads were no more than plywood with a layer of rubber. Today, kits like the Roland TK30 have mesh heads. You can use brushes on them like a real drum. You can play with articulation. In the old days, the sample was either on or off. There was no way to play a swell, especially with cymbals.

You are correct about recording or playing with digital drums today. I have recorded with them when writing and have attached samples to them later. I simply record the MIDI data into the computer on a track and then play it through the sound module, or I just assign virtual instruments to the MIDI notes. The other thing I do is use the acoustic drum microphones as triggers, and trigger a sample later.

Like I said, according John, he sequenced it all and Louie came in after the fact. Back then, LOTS of drummers were doing this and they resented it. There was even a movement and lawsuits, where drummers were suing for lost revenue because of drum machines and sequencers. The union even got involved. But then again, lots of drummers in bands didn't even play on their records. There are tons of examples. Heck, there are whole bands that have never recorded a note on records. It was all studio musicians.

Most recordings going to a mixing engineer have all of their drum sounds replaced or supplemented by samples the mixing engineer has. Chris and Tom Lord Alge are two big examples. They have their signature sound and it gets applied to a single for $50k and boom, there it is.
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