Josh Mcdowell

charl · Post by **charl** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:29 pm

Edward wrote: I think that Dopeland's errors could be just as dangerous as the narrow minded KJV-only, far right fundamentalists that operate that site.

Oh I would say moreso. This BDM group seems like what are usually called Christians with cult-like tendencies (That is, they seem to be somewhat orthodox); Copeland is, as I said, a full-on heretic.
That's what I find particularly amusing about the site. The Kenneth Copelands and Benny Hinns occupy the same space as the John Macarthurs.

BTW, Mother Teresa did teach pluralism re Vatican II and had an eastern view of suffering-so as much as one may hate to say it, they may have a legitimate point in including her.

Hehehe...Pat Robertson is liberal...hehehe. I guess everyone wants to distance themselves from him.

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:54 pm

Oh, I don't agree with everything Mother Teresa stood for, but she did a lot for people in India. They're not doing anything but bashing these people, and I noticed they didn't really offer any alternatives. They don't have any business complaining if they can't offer any alternatives.

executioner · Post by **executioner** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:37 am

PetFCtr wrote:
executioner wrote:Boy these people even bash Billy Graham!
Billy Graham is not cool...The man says all religions lead to heaven, buddhism, hinduism, islam. Thats just crazy.

Theres only one way to heaven a narrow way through Jesus. Bill Graham and the like try and preach a wider way...

I don't know where your getting your crap from, but Billy Graham has never said that in his life. Every sermon he does and has done for years talks about the only way is through Jesus. I've seen Billy multiple times and have watched many of his TV specials and everytime he uses that same verse." I am the Way, The Truth, and the Life no one comes to the Father but through me"

Before you come on here with that I and others want some proof.

PetFCtr · Post by **PetFCtr** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:29 am

executioner wrote:
PetFCtr wrote:
executioner wrote:Boy these people even bash Billy Graham!
Billy Graham is not cool...The man says all religions lead to heaven, buddhism, hinduism, islam. Thats just crazy.

Theres only one way to heaven a narrow way through Jesus. Bill Graham and the like try and preach a wider way...
I don't know where your getting your crap from, but Billy Graham has never said that in his life. Every sermon he does and has done for years talks about the only way is through Jesus. I've seen Billy multiple times and have watched many of his TV specials and everytime he uses that same verse." I am the Way, The Truth, and the Life no one comes to the Father but through me"

Before you come on here with that I and others want some proof.

http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/F ... cbill1.htm
http://www.cephasministry.com/billy_gra ... _real.html

js3971 · Post by **js3971** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:39 am

Why don't people look at the fruit of a person or ministry instead of listening or reading the hear-say stuff put out by modern day pharisees and saducees. If you really want to know what a ministry believes or teaches, find out yourself, from the source. Anybody can write a book or make a website criticizing someone or their ministry. We have quite a few "critics" on this message board alone.

It amazes me that Jesus never criticized anyone, except for the religious people. Yet some of the people that most religious people listen too, are the most critical.

PetFCtr · Post by **PetFCtr** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:30 pm

js3971 wrote:Why don't people look at the fruit of a person or ministry instead of listening or reading the hear-say stuff put out by modern day pharisees and saducees. If you really want to know what a ministry believes or teaches, find out yourself, from the source. Anybody can write a book or make a website criticizing someone or their ministry. We have quite a few "critics" on this message board alone.

It amazes me that Jesus never criticized anyone, except for the religious people. Yet some of the people that most religious people listen too, are the most critical.

Dude or Dudette those are direct quotes from a conversation an interview.

Not hearsay

js3971 · Post by **js3971** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:02 pm

I will continue to support and believe in the ministry of Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, TBN, and others as long as they continue to agree with the Word. I know the fruit of their ministries, and some of what they teach and preach. If that makes me a heretic too in the eyes of man, oh well. I know that the Word is clear that Jesus is the name above everything named, and also that according to the Word, Jesus puts his word above his name.

PetFCtr · Post by **PetFCtr** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:33 pm

js3971 wrote:I will continue to support and believe in the ministry of Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, TBN,

Your kidding right. TBN should be named the Heretic network. All those preachers are heretics. I wouldnt want to be associated with them. Hinn, Copeland and Robertson especially. You can't see that, thats a real shame. They do not put Gods word ahead of they're own. Remember Jesus said there will be many coming in my name who will deceive and lead astray...

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:54 pm

In my opinion, universalism is one of the most egregious of doctrinal errors, regardless of other "fruit."

charl · Post by **charl** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:23 pm

PetFCtr wrote:
js3971 wrote:I will continue to support and believe in the ministry of Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, TBN,
Your kidding right. TBN should be named the Heretic network.

All Heresy all the Time!!

Since Benny Hinn believes in like nine gods and Kenneth Copeland believes in what seems to be a mormon style view of human deification (that is from their OWN words) , I think it's pretty darn clear that they are NOT following the word. Sorry but NO christians believe those things. They would have been regarded as heretics even over a thousand years ago.

Speaking of Mormons, look at their fruit. They seem to be upstanding citizens, big on the family. Perhaps we were premature in calling them heretics because they believe God was an exalted man who came from another planet and all that other insane stuff. Maybe they should just become another denomination like they're pushing for.

There is a difference between criticizing and being true to the faith that was given to us by the Apostles.

BTW, the Heretical teachers are indeed "religious" so even by those standards Jesus would have criticized them. After all the problem he had was not so much with religion in general (he started one for heaven's sake) as false religion.

PJ · Post by PJ » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:50 am

How can anyone publically knock these two people?

I was at a conference last week in LA and got to reconnect with Josh for the first time in like 13 years. Josh is an an incredible brother and was a huge help in confirming Petra's ministry to the more fundamental side of the body. I got a chance to talk to him and let him know about the band having their last show on the 31st. He said if he would have known, He would have been there. Great guy and solid.

As for Billy Graham, How dare we bad talk a man that has led more people to Christ than probably more people than we all know combined. He is a hero to our faith, please do not critisize this man or how our OGd has used him. I thank God that we can have an example like him.

js3971 · Post by **js3971** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:38 am

Ok consider this then, Petra played live on TBN a couple of years ago. A copy of that can be found on John Schlitt's website. If TBN as you say is the heretical network, and all those that are on that network are heretics, I guess Petra is a heretical band.

TD Jakes appears on TBN all the time. In his latest book, "HeMotions", Max Lucado writes the forward. A few years ago before I was married, I visited John Hagee's church (who also appears on TBN regularly), Max Lucado was the guest speaker. I guess Max Lucado is a heretic as well.

They show Billy Graham's crusades regularly as well on TBN. I guess Billy Graham is a heretic as well.

Teachers or preachers like Chuck Colson, Charles Stanley and others shows are on TBN also. Again, I guess they are heretics.

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:33 pm

And MC Hammer is on there too! So that proves it!!!!!!

js3971 · Post by **js3971** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:11 pm

Whoa, lol, this topic has come full circle. From Josh McDowell to MCHammer. Now there's a tour! Lol.

charl · Post by **charl** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:34 pm

No one has necessarily played the "heretics by association" card (as my statement was sarcastic). Don't try to villify anyone who simply disagrees with you js, or you are no different than the BDM guys.
I would say though that high profile christians would probably do well to distance themselves from the false teachers-not for themselves, but for those who listen to them. They are unwittingly giving these guys a platform to spew their teachings and appear legitimate.

However, I know there is a school of thought that believe they should remain in groups like this to point to the true light. I have to believe that is the case with someone like a Charles Stanley. I had a teacher whose husband was a United church minister and that was their reasoning for staying in the denomination. I do wonder if they remained even after the denomination made one of the oldest heresies of all official doctrine (that being Arianism) as there does come a point when you have to give up and leave these sects to their own devices.

Believe it or not, there is a happy medium between BDM and embracing of false teaching. All of the writers of scripture have very little time for those who adulterate the gospel, especially those who have had their error explained to them, and yet cling to it. I weep with Jeremiah on this, because there is no peace when it is falsly constructed.

Also, TD Jakes is a figure of some controversy-it's not completely clear whether he is a heretic or just a little out there. If he is not a modalist, why doesn't he just come out and say 'hey I'm not a modalist' and confirm the orthodox doctrine of the trinity? But he always tries to finesse it with a specific reading of the KJV that sounds a lot like...modalism. He is a dynamic figure and certainly a fabulous orator; it would be nice to hear him affirm true Christian teaching unequivocally. I do think most christians start out modalists, but what should we do when they stubbornly remain so?

Perhaps we should start a prayer thread for the HereticsTM-they are certainly people who desperately need it.

The Petra Zone

Josh Mcdowell

Josh McDowell and Billy Graham

heretics

Who is online