Josh Mcdowell

[js3971]

You're right blessing does not depend on faith. We are blessed already with or without faith. But it's only going to be those who have faith who receive it.

Everybody has been blessed with the gift of salvation, but only those who have faith receive it.

You're also right about people being sick because of sin. They may or may not be sick because of a particular sin they've committed. However, all sickness is a result of the sin, the sin of the first Adam, the sin that the second Adam (Jesus) took away. Therefore, those who have faith, are healed of their sickness as well.

Now, let me say it's important to define faith by what Scripture says. Faith comes (or is inspired or rises up) when we hear the Word of God.

[js3971]

God blesses because it's in his heart to do so. So then an argument could be made that God has favorites and he chooses to bless some and not others. If we went with this argument then we could say that God is an unjust God. Why would he bless us here in America, and not bless those in Africa, India or China.

Some (I'm not saying you) make the argument that God wants us to live in poverty. If this is true, then those same people in Africa, India, or China must be some of the most faithful or holy people in the world.

I would have a hard time following God like that. For a God like this, thank God I'm born in America.

Just like a loving father would, God wants the best for his children. Sickness, poverty, disease, etc., are things that are obviously not the best for anybody. Now, it's true, a person might come to rely on God in times like this, but God did not bring the disease or poverty on the person. The thief is the one who comes to kill, steal and destroy. But it's also true that these things can make a person question or deny the existence of a loving God or any god at all for that matter.

[Petra24]

JS--when you say "only those who have faith recieve it" are you speaking of finances or blessings in general?

You go on to say that "those who have faith are healed of their sickness". So.......My pastor's wife, who is continuously struggling with health issues doesn't have enough faith to be healed? Is that what you are saying?

Just trying to get a point of clarification here.

I agree that living in poverty doesn't indicate holiness! In some cases (not all) it indicates laziness!!

Back to my comment on finances...I am not opposed to Christians making money or even a lot of money. I agee with Winterlens and the need to support the ministry. However support and greed/excess is a different story. Need and want should be considered. All ministers in the USA need a vehicle. Do they need $100,000 vehicles? (see B. Hinn). All ministers need homes (and I don't have a problem with the church paying for that). Do they need multimillion dollar homes? Do they need their own private jets? Is first class not good enough? Would Jesus even recognize the parsonage if invited over for dinner? Would he scold any who suffer for the faith for their lack of knowledge between need/greed. Where is the accountability?

I am probably going to get crucified for my next statement/opinion. Christian musicians like John Schlitt, Bob Hartman, Michael W. Smith, etc. can make all the money they want via the ENTERTAINMENT route. I don't have a problem with that. Those guys are using their God given talents just like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, etc. have used their God given talents to make money. The good thing about Petra, for example, is that while providing quality Christian entertainment they also shared the gospel with a lot of people. Some choose to simply serve as "Christian" entertainers (nothing wrong with that IMO). I see Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, Jesse Duplantis, etc. as entertainers who are sharing a version of the gospel with people. If you watch their TV shows you recieve some entertainment, some serious showmanship and a little bit of gospel thrown in. Most of the teaching is not very deep! Again, not saying there is anything wrong with Christian entertainment so please don't condemn my soul to an eternity of shoveling coal to heat up the fire. Simply saying that we should call things what they really are.

Peace.

[js3971]

No, I'm not saying that your pastor's wife doesn't have enough faith to be healed. I don't know your pastor's wife, the situation or anything. That's between God and your pastor's wife.

What I do know is Jesus healed those who came to him for healing. I know there have been people in my church who have been healed, including myself. There are also people in my church, that by sight, appear as if to not have recieved their healing yet. Is that because they don't have enough faith. I can't say that and won't say that. But I will say, according to Scripture, it takes faith to please God.

I agree with you on what you said about Christian entertainers deserving the money for their work. You're also right about what you said about some of the pastors you mentioned using entertainment in their messages. Jesus did this as well. But I won't agree with you on their being little else or nothing deep.

Ok, you don't agree or like their messages on healing, money, or being a god, etc. Throw that out, and just listen to their teachings on other things. Or read one of their books on family, overcoming temptation, whatever else besides the stuff you don't like. You'll truly be amazed at what they have to say.

[winterlens]

God blesses because it's in his heart to do so. So then an argument could be made that God has favorites and he chooses to bless some and not others. If we went with this argument then we could say that God is an unjust God. Why would he bless us here in America, and not bless those in Africa, India or China.

An argument could be made that God's favorites are the ones who have the most faith, too. In fact, that's precisely what I'm arguing against.

Just like a loving father would, God wants the best for his children. Sickness, poverty, disease, etc., are things that are obviously not the best for anybody. Now, it's true, a person might come to rely on God in times like this, but God did not bring the disease or poverty on the person.

God most certainly is at fault. He says, "I wound, I heal." He had the power to stay Job's suffering and did not. He had the power to stay Joseph's suffering and did not--and in fact, worked greater good through their trials than would possibly have come any other way.

If God cannot filter disease from my life without my faith, he is no god at all. If his sovereign power over my life extends as far as my faith, then I am doomed.

God most certainly brings disease, and he brings sickness. He touches our lives for our good always--not when we perceive it to be good. "Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come," and the list continues. These are all under God's sovereign power.

[Petra24]

Winterlens...great comment about "I wound, I heal". Many Christians do not want to admit this or refuse to accept this fact. He rains on the just and the unjust.

JS--healing....i believe that God chooses who He will and will not heal and while having the faith to be healed is important it is not the most pressing issue. God is soverign and we are not. Concerning my purchasing a book or tape from some of the previous mentioned entertainers/evangelists....i have shelves of books from these people and can honestly say that it has made very little impact on my life. I am sure that others have benefited from some of their books/tapes but I promise that I will not spend another dime toward their retirement funds! I have chosen to give monies to a variety of "ministries" down through the years and will continue to do so selectively. Petra would continue to get money from me as an entertainment factor if they continued to produce and tour.

Curious as to what your thoughts were on my comments about need/greed? Jets, cars, homes, jewelry, etc.

[corolla1]

if a tv evangelist claims to be a god whether it's a big god, little god,medium god or whatever, he's a false teacher plain and simple. copeland said in one of his messages and yes i heard him say it that "you don't have a god in you, you're are one." paul crouch said the following quote and yes i heard this too that "critics be gone i am a little god." this is heresy and to think some christians believe this doctrine is good just shows how little discernment christians have today. jesus said to beware of false prophets. unfortunately some christians are very glad to support them.

[Epyon5757]

God most certainly brings disease, and he brings sickness. He touches our lives for our good always--not when we perceive it to be good. "Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come," and the list continues. These are all under God's sovereign power.

Winterlens,

Before you read this and respond, I have a disclaimer.
Despite the questions below, I am still a Christian. I still believe that God sent his son to die on the cross for our sins. That does not mean I don't have difficult questions.

If God touches our lives only for good, as you assert in the above quote, then I have some questions for you.

I have epilepsy (seizures). This condition was created as the result of an assault on me by a gang member at a public school when I was in 7th grade (fall of 1993). God is sovereign over our lives...so why did he not stop the attacker from assaulting me from behind (I was hit in the back of the head with brass knuckles)?

Why did God allow these gangs to target me in retaliation for the work of churches in my area (the churches were pulling people out of the gangs and getting them saved) that I had nothing to do with, short of my attendance at that church?

God is sovereign...and he touches our lives only for good...why have I had to struggle with epileptic seizures that are not a genetic condition since I was 14 (almost 11 years...I turn 25 in April)?

God is all-powerful...I can have a grand mal seizure at any time either without warning or with just a few seconds warning...something like this can (and has) lost me jobs before, and has that potential again. Why doesn't he open a path for me that would head off this problem?

If God is interested in doing only good and puts us through trials to strengthen us, then why do the trials that he gives some people (including myself) though only make life more difficult, and in some cases (like my own) have a permanent effect that could become more serious over time and that one will be forced to live with for the rest of their lives without divine intervention?

These questions (which I have had for ten and a half years) have NEVER been answered, not by my father (who is ordained and has a Ph.D. in biblical literature), not by any of my pastors, and certainly not by God.

[js3971]

Well Epyon, if what Petra24 says is true "God wounds, God heals", then it was God who did it. What a sick God.

[calicowriter]

First of all, I don't mean to offend anyone, but I am pressed for time and may come off a bit short-sounding.

For one thing, it ain't about you, it ain't about me, it's about Him. And His Glory.

This is a fallen world and stuff happens. I remember when my mom got colon cancer and people would say things like, "What a shame that had to happen to her, she's so nice." Yes, she was. But does that mean only people we perceive as not nice should get cancer? Or when things happen and people say, "Why me?" Well, why not? Got someone else in mind?

God allowed Mary and Martha to grieve for three days when Lazarus died. Jesus could have cured him on the spot. But by waiting (and yes, allowing their pain), Jesus was able to give even greater glory to the Father.

God has a plan -- for each of us and for humanity as a whole. We can accept our part in it, have faith in the outcome, and have peace. Or we can rail against it, doubt His word, and be in constant angst. That's free will.

[winterlens]

God allowed Mary and Martha to grieve for three days when Lazarus died. Jesus could have cured him on the spot. But by waiting (and yes, allowing their pain), Jesus was able to give even greater glory to the Father.

This is a good point. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus waited for Lazarus to die because he loved them:

"Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. When therefore he heard that he was sick, he stayed then two days {longer} in the place where he was" (Jn 11.6,7 NAS; emphasis added).

[Shell]

God wants us to trust Him in our circumstances; it's easy to trust Him when things are all hunky dory. The real test is when our circumstances stink. Are we going to believe that He sees what is happening or go our own way? Too many people base their relationship with God on whether things are going their way or not. God didn't promise us a cushy, problem free existence here on earth, and we don't always understand why things happen the way they do. But very often it's during the hard times we'll do the most growing. Your faith can't grow without trials.

[winterlens]

If God touches our lives only for good, as you assert in the above quote, then I have some questions for you.

And, for what it's worth, fair questions to God. I am not qualified to answer them, other than to ask if your sufferrng exceeds that of Christ, or even Job.

I do not want to be callous--or to sound that way. I am sorry for what happened to you and certainly wouldn't wish it on you or anyone. And were it in my power, I would have prevented it.

I do not know, and hope that I never do, the kind of suffering you have gone through. My own suffering in life has been mild, mostly psychological, and self-imposed. So I want to be careful in responding; but also truthful.

If God is interested in doing only good and puts us through trials to strengthen us, then why do the trials that he gives some people (including myself) though only make life more difficult, and in some cases (like my own) have a permanent effect that could become more serious over time and that one will be forced to live with for the rest of their lives without divine intervention?

You may not like this answer, but I believe it is because it brings God glory. He is glorified in our weakness and disability, both physical and spiritual. This is the answer he gives Paul, who asked three times to be freed of a "thorn in the flesh." God's grace was sufficient for Paul, and it suffices you.

I cannot answer in what way God is glorified in you; but he is absolutely more glorified when you are disabled than when you are physically fit--your condition would otherwise be different.

These questions (which I have had for ten and a half years) have NEVER been answered, not by my father (who is ordained and has a Ph.D. in biblical literature), not by any of my pastors, and certainly not by God.

God never answered Job, either. Job asked, "Why, God?" And God basically told him (which I paraphrase from Swindoll), "Until you can run the physical universe, don't tell me how to run the moral one." I highly recommend Swindoll's last sermon on Job. Keep in mind that we don't know how long Job was destitute.

You might also ask other questions: why were you born in the United States (or a first world country, more likely), where treatment for epilepsy is significantly more advanced than other countries with gang problems (e.g., South Africa)? Why weren't you killed when you were hit? How would you rely on God if you weren't physically inhibited? In what ways would your personal vices be worse without epilepsy? How would your ministry (I don't mean evangelism, but relationships to others and to Christ) be different without it?

There aren't any answers to those questions, of course, because we simply don't know and cannot. But the confidence that you have isn't based on your personal circumstances. Our confidence that God only touches us for good stems directly from the cross: Christ died, suffering more than you or I could possibly imagine and in ways that we never will. The God who subjected his own Son to such terror and pain to such a beautiful end most certainly will subject us to the same.

[winterlens]

Well Epyon, if what Petra24 says is true "God wounds, God heals", then it was God who did it. What a sick God.

As sick as one who would put his own son to death for me.

[charl]

I've been gone for how long and you guys are still at it!

Can't really speak to the current issue as I usually get quite annoyed about it. Though I will say I think winterlens' answers are pretty darn good ones.