Jesus Cleansing the Temple

A place for Petra fans to discuss other topics
User avatar
Michael
Pethead Fanatic
Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 1608
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 5:48 am
Location: Tulsa, OK
Contact:

Jesus Cleansing the Temple

Post by Michael » Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:30 pm

In response to this post:
executioner wrote:Sorry, but I try to stay away from Word music. Their just in it for the money. When anyone says that to you and you think they are judgmental or wrong, just remember what Jesus did to the merchants in the Temple.
I've been thinking about this event lately, because most churches I've been to have a bookstore in the church foyer, and some of the large ones I've been to have things like coffee shops and even an ice cream shop on the property. I guess the question is, WHY did Jesus cleanse the Temple. Was it because there was ANY commerce going on there, or was it because it was interrupting the worship of the worshippers? I suspect the latter... seems like I've heard before that this area of the temple was as far as Gentiles were allowed to proceed, so their worship area was being violated. If that is correct (Jesus objected to the interruption of worship, not to commerce per se) then those same vendors might have been OK with their booths directly outside of the temple on the sidewalk or whatever. People do have to get their sacrificial animals somewhere!

On that principle, selling bookstores in the foyer would be OK but selling popcorn in the sanctuary during the service would not. And selling lots and lots of CDs would not be violating this principle unless it was a hindrance to people's relationship with God.

So, does this whole argument really apply to Word Records?
[url]http://www.GuideToPetra.com[/url] - [url]http://www.ScriptureMenu.com[/url]

[url=http://www.last.fm/user/TulsaMJ/?chartstyle=BasicPetraZone2][img]http://imagegen.last.fm/BasicPetraZone2/recenttracks/TulsaMJ.gif[/img][/url]

User avatar
epdc
Pethead Fanatic
Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 2563
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:35 pm
#1 Album: Wake Up Call
Pethead since: 1998
Location: Sonora, M�xico
Contact:

i`M AGREE

Post by epdc » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:04 pm

With Michael. I have been asked that stuff too since we have a bookstore in my church and selling machines. The bookstore is open before the service starts and is close until the service finish. I think that was Jesus`s point too. Is ok to sell stuff as long you don`t interrupt the worship service or distract the people ya know.
...He will rejoice over thee with joy; He will rest in His love, He will joy over thee with singing...
Zephaniah 3:17

I love this verse!!!!!!

Facebook account: Elo palacios

User avatar
Pethead1
Pethead Fanatic
Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 449
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:44 am
Location: Atlanta GA
Contact:

Post by Pethead1 » Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:03 pm

I also think Jesus objected at the sellers cheating on the buyers. I agree with what you said with how it would be okay to sell things, to an extent, and Jesus was probaly mad at them hindering and cheating the people, not at them just selling. Like selling a $5 book for $10.
Those asleep will be awakened
Not a one will be forsaken.

User avatar
Michael
Pethead Fanatic
Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 1608
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 5:48 am
Location: Tulsa, OK
Contact:

Cheaters

Post by Michael » Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:36 am

Pethead1 wrote:...Jesus was probaly mad at them hindering and cheating the people, not at them just selling. Like selling a $5 book for $10.
Uh-oh... look out, Big Idea! Selling a VeggieTales DVD for twenty bucks!! :o
[url]http://www.GuideToPetra.com[/url] - [url]http://www.ScriptureMenu.com[/url]

[url=http://www.last.fm/user/TulsaMJ/?chartstyle=BasicPetraZone2][img]http://imagegen.last.fm/BasicPetraZone2/recenttracks/TulsaMJ.gif[/img][/url]

RockMe
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:33 pm

Merchants

Post by RockMe » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:55 am

Jesus objected to the Jews turning worship into a profit-making enterprise. It wasn't just commerce, and it wasn't just overcharging.

Remember that the Jews needed an animal to sacrifice for atonement. Well step right up! I've got this beautiful, spotless lamb--perfect for sacrifice, barbecue, what have you. On a limited budget? Don't worry. I've got doves! And for such a low price, how can you say no . . . to God?

And stuff like that. A comparison today is somewhat difficult, but it certainly wouldn't involve ice cream, coffee, or DVDs, no matter how overpriced. Imagine, though, that in order to partake of communion you had to buy a $3 cup of juice, and a $1 piece of bread. That would be turning a religious observance into crass commercialism, and that's what Jesus objected to.

User avatar
Michael
Pethead Fanatic
Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 1608
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 5:48 am
Location: Tulsa, OK
Contact:

Pay to Worship

Post by Michael » Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:45 am

I don't know if that is really a valid comparison either... Communion and animal sacrifice are not by any means the same thing. Communion is a celebration of the sacrifice that was already made; animal sacrifice was a type of the sacrifice that would one day be made. It was a sacrifice, so there had to be a cost associated with it. In 2 Samuel 24:18-24 David was commanded to offer a sacrifice, and someone offered to let him do it for free, but he insisted on paying for it! Country people would have had to raise their animals (at a cost to themselves), city people would have had to buy them, and if country people didn't have a suitable animal to sacrifice they would have had to buy it somewhere!

Interesting... in Mark's account of the situation we see that not only did Jesus turn over their tables... he wouldn't even let them bring their merchandise into the temple court area. And he quotes Jeremiah chapter 7 when he says they have made the temple a "den of robbers"... that passage doesn't talk about commerce at all. It talks more about bringing sinfulness before God in the Temple and pretending it doesn't matter. Jesus also quotes a passage in Isaiah 56 which is talking about foreigners being allowed to worship God in the Temple. It still seems like more an issue of where they were doing something as opposed to what they were doing to me.
[url]http://www.GuideToPetra.com[/url] - [url]http://www.ScriptureMenu.com[/url]

[url=http://www.last.fm/user/TulsaMJ/?chartstyle=BasicPetraZone2][img]http://imagegen.last.fm/BasicPetraZone2/recenttracks/TulsaMJ.gif[/img][/url]

RockMe
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:33 pm

Issues

Post by RockMe » Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:14 pm

Communion and animal sacrifice are not by any means the same thing.
The point is not the nature of the celebration or how much sacrifice a person had to make. The point is that Jews had turned a religious observance into a chance to make a quick buck. This is similar to the Catholic church's policy of accepting bribes to forgive sins in Luther's time. Poor people were out of luck, but religious leaders used their influence to become rich.
talking about foreigners being allowed to worship God in the Temple
There are multiple problems with this. The whole point of Jesus' ministry was to enable the Jews to bring the Gentiles into the fold of God. And if Jesus were complaining about this practice, why did he destroy the commercial setting of the Temple instead of simply running the Gentiles out? Why didn't he come out and say that's what he had a problem with? Jesus taught in parables, but he never beat around the bush. If he had something to say, he said it. You also have problems with why Jesus suddenly denounced a practice that had been going on for some time. (This is easier to justify with extortion than blasphemy.) And you also have an issue with the fact that nothing Jesus ever said supports the Gentile angle while the majority of Jesus' teachings are about money and how it should affect our lives and our relationship with God.

You can believe what you want, but it seems clear to me. There are no problems with the money theory while there are several with the Gentile one.

User avatar
Michael
Pethead Fanatic
Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 1608
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 5:48 am
Location: Tulsa, OK
Contact:

Re: Issues

Post by Michael » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:06 am

RockMe wrote:
Michael wrote:talking about foreigners being allowed to worship God in the Temple
There are multiple problems with this. The whole point of Jesus' ministry was to enable the Jews to bring the Gentiles into the fold of God. And if Jesus were complaining about this practice, why did he destroy the commercial setting of the Temple instead of simply running the Gentiles out? Why didn't he come out and say that's what he had a problem with?
You probably ought to take a look at the Bible passages I referenced... here's the link to the Isaiah passage again. If you had read it the first time you would have realized that it says that Gentiles ARE to be allowed to worship God in the Temple if they have "bound themselves to the Lord." If you would like documentation that the area Jesus drove the vendors from was as far into the temple as Gentiles were allowed to come, a quick Google on "Temple Courts" produced this page and this page.

Or what about this description of exactly what I said? Or this one? Just to let you know I'm not making things up here.
RockMe wrote:The point is not the nature of the celebration or how much sacrifice a person had to make.
The point of a sacrifice is that it is a sacrifice. We don't sell bread and juice to people for communion, do we? But they didn't give people doves and lambs for sacrifices. That's all I was trying to get across. They are not the same at all in any way except that they commemorate the same event.
[url]http://www.GuideToPetra.com[/url] - [url]http://www.ScriptureMenu.com[/url]

[url=http://www.last.fm/user/TulsaMJ/?chartstyle=BasicPetraZone2][img]http://imagegen.last.fm/BasicPetraZone2/recenttracks/TulsaMJ.gif[/img][/url]

RockMe
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:33 pm

Re: Issues

Post by RockMe » Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:18 am

Just to let you know I'm not making things up here.
You seem to be taking this rather personally. I disagree with you, that's all. I have read the verses you cited, but I do not agree with your conclusion. It seems clear to me that Jesus was upset with his people turning a sacred ritual into a business. You see it differently. I don't understand why we can't simply disagree on this.

User avatar
Michael
Pethead Fanatic
Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 1608
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 5:48 am
Location: Tulsa, OK
Contact:

Multiple Problems

Post by Michael » Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:56 am

Well, you did misunderstand what I was saying, and since the passage I cited pretty clearly contradicts what you said I said, it is obvious that you either didn't read the scripture passage at all or you didn't pay attention to what you were reading. If that is the case then you contradicted me without any knowledge of what I actually said. Disputing someone without paying attention to what they are saying is rude, and I do take personal rudeness personally. And "You can believe what you want, but it seems clear to me" is a personal statement; I don't think it's fair for you to imply that I was the one who took things to that level.

BUT: you are of course right in saying that everybody has a right to his own opinion. I think there is actually a grain of truth in both arguments, and in the long run they both lead to roughly the same conclusion: commerce that interferes with worship is bad. I'm just saying that the problem is that they were selling popcorn during the sermon; you're saying they were selling headphones to listen to the sermon.

Isn't attending church a "sacred ritual?" So if someone sells me a book at the entrance to the church, isn't that "turning a sacred ritual into a business?" And isn't that what churches are doing these days? If what you say is correct, seems to me that churches are wrong for selling books to their congregations.
[url]http://www.GuideToPetra.com[/url] - [url]http://www.ScriptureMenu.com[/url]

[url=http://www.last.fm/user/TulsaMJ/?chartstyle=BasicPetraZone2][img]http://imagegen.last.fm/BasicPetraZone2/recenttracks/TulsaMJ.gif[/img][/url]

executioner
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 3836
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:56 am
#1 Album: JAH
Pethead since: 1980
Location: Earth

i think

Post by executioner » Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:16 am

I think both of you have good points, and I feel that you are both right in some ways, but I disagree with Word and most other CCM labels because they are not doing this for the right reasons. It's a business and not a ministry. Yes they have to make a profit in what they are doing, but their prices for their CD's are the highest in this. Even at Best Buy a Word CD starts at $14.98, and not $12.98-$13.98 like the rest of them. This is a little off the subject, but this is why I won't buy P&W CD's. Nobody wanted to do them 15 years ago like Petra, but everybody in the last five years has one out because they see the $$$$. Petra was at their peak and did something that was out of the ordinary and even Word doubted it could be done, but Bob said that is what we are going to do. He saw a need and I truly believe he put Petra's name on the line for doing that and I believe God blessed Petra for that.
I know I have a very bad taste in my mouth about this subject, but I see so many so called Christians and churches using God's Name to promote themselves and I think they have overstepped their boundries, but it's not me to judge; I just won't buy any of their products.
FORGIVE! FORGET! & LET GO!

RockMe
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:33 pm

Re: Multiple Problems

Post by RockMe » Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:19 am

the passage I cited pretty clearly contradicts what you said I said
My conclusion is based on Jesus' ministry and the culture of the time, not passages from the Old Testament or elsewhere in the Bible. So I don't see a contradiction in Isaiah to be proving me wrong because I don't believe it applies the way you say it does. You seem to believe that if I would simply listen to you I would see that you are clearly right, but that is a rather arrogant assumption. I have listened, and I still disagree with your conclusion. When I read the passage(s) of Jesus cleansing the Temple, I don't see him having an issue with the Gentiles, no matter what other sources you cite.
And "You can believe what you want, but it seems clear to me" is a personal statement
It was not intended to be, and I apologize if it came across that way. Written words do not have body language or vocal inflection and do not always reflect the tone of the writer. I only meant that I have no desire to force you to my belief, but I have no question about my own.
So if someone sells me a book at the entrance to the church, isn't that "turning a sacred ritual into a business?"
As I said before, the Jews were profiting from items which were required for worship. You couldn't sacrifice without an animal. Period. You can worship without a Yancey book or a "Veggie Tales" video, so it isn't the same thing. My church has a table where they sell Christian books and music that might otherwise be hard to find (or people may forget about them when they leave). It is intended to benefit the buyer, and the church makes little money off the items as they buy them at retail and sell them for approximately the same price (usually rounded up to the next dollar or so for convenience). The intent is to take the ministry home and into our everyday lives.

Selling communion wafers or renting hymn books or whatever a person needs to participate in worship is a completely different idea and is more analogous to what was going on in Jesus' day. I don't know how to state it more clearly than that, so if you don't see the difference, then I suggest we drop the subject and move on.

User avatar
Pethead1
Pethead Fanatic
Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 449
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:44 am
Location: Atlanta GA
Contact:

Post by Pethead1 » Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:46 am

Everybody, take a deep breath and go read Angelwalk by Roger Elwood.
This book puts stuff like this into todays light.
Those asleep will be awakened
Not a one will be forsaken.

User avatar
separateunion
Pethead Fanatic
Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 1297
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:20 pm
Location: Char's House
Contact:

Post by separateunion » Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:11 pm

Naughty RockMe, inciting arguments again. Haven't you learned from the last board? :wink:

RockMe
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:33 pm

Naughty

Post by RockMe » Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:35 pm

Yeah, but I didn't mean to this time! :)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest