Josh Mcdowell

charl · Post by **charl** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:48 pm

Actually the New Testament writers do indeed promise suffering. Peter, the very disciple who protested Jesus' suffering the loudest, later looked at it as exemplary. Of course that was from the other side of the cross.

The cross is really the centre of this discussion for me. If God took something as unjust and evil as Christ's death on the cross and meant all along that it would be this way, for the salvation of the world, I don't see it as far-fetched that he would do similar things with far smaller evils than that. The cross was plan A right from the start, remember. And If Jesus as the only righteous person on earth did not escape suffering why would we think we will? This is the perspective from which we must look at everything else.

The way God deals with evil in general is not as simple an issue as it may seem-I think it requires a rather nuanced approach to conform to what the bible is actually saying. The words of Joseph are very telling: God took what was meant for evil and used it for good, the saving of many lives.
God seems to control the world both actively and passively. That is sometimes he intervenes and sometimes he doesn't, allowing other agents to bring about the circumstances he wants. We see that in the book of Job, in which the satan is the one who takes everything from Job. Yet no one even entertained the thought that God was not ultimately responsible, including the writer/editor who was privy to the heavenly prelude, the satan, or even God.
Again, kings records that an evil spirit which plagued Saul was sent from the LORD, even though the spirit drove Saul to such distraction that he tried to kill the LORD's annointed. If he had not wished David to suffer, why allow the spirit to cause such harm?
Why also does the LORD mock the Assyrians through Isaiah, telling them they are mere tools in his hands that he wields as he wishes, not the other way around?

We are not trying to push this on God, he claims the responsibility himself. So how do we reconsile that with his inherent goodness? I think many people stuggle with this because they look at it backwards. God allowing evil does not make God evil. It makes the evil work for a good end. The absolute triumph is to trick your enemy into furthering your cause! This is exactly what he is doing, for his glory.

As I said earlier, the fact that God is ultimately responsible means that God is ultimately in control-and since he is good, then good will result. Suffering then has meaning. There is something to hope for beyond it. Any other view leaves no hope, for then even the greatest good, God, is obviously unable to restrain evil. Evil is the victor.

As for punishment, when faced with this problem, Jesus simply said, "unless you repent you too will perish." Hardly the answer anyone expected! That was always one of the most intriguing of his sayings I thought.

St_Augustines_Pears · Post by **St_Augustines_Pears** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:59 pm

Judas priest!

Eight (EIGHT!) pages long on this thread, and it doesn't look like there's any end in sight!

Pethead1 · Post by **Pethead1** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:39 am

js3971 · Post by **js3971** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:02 am

Yes, Petra24, I think you're right with your last post. I think we just need to agree to disagree.

Hey, we found something to agree on.

Peace to you and everyone else as well.

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:50 pm

I've waited on moving this thread for a long time, because it WAS on-topic, but I think since it's been off-topic for like, I don't know, 35 pages or so... I'd better move it over to off-topic.

js3971 · Post by **js3971** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:49 pm

only 35 pages, man we could of done better than that...lol

Pethead1 · Post by **Pethead1** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:19 am

Lets do 40, after all we are the Petheads and never do anything anyway but loud.

charl · Post by **charl** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:52 pm

yes Michael, this thread should have been moved ages ago

...I think the last mention of anything Petra related was about John and on page 3. We're so bad.

But maybe we'll just keep changing the subject forever. Let us air out all our doctrinal disputes here!

js3971 · Post by **js3971** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:51 pm

Yes I think doctor so and so is, oh wait, you said doctrinal disputes, not doctor disputes...(I know...it was bad), but I've got to do something to keep the thread going.

BTW, Who's Josh McDowell (just kidding)

Pethead1 · Post by **Pethead1** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:21 pm

We all know that if your Bible is not black and big it is not a real Bible.

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:54 pm

No, you're wrong. All Bibles should be red Bibles. Cose if you dont reed it, it cant help you.

Pethead1 · Post by **Pethead1** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:02 am

You may have got some people mad by telling them they actually have to read the Bible.

charl · Post by **charl** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:59 pm

Tangental: does anyone else here hate red-letter bibles with a passion whose worm will never never die? I was looking for a new one, as the binding of my current one is coming apart. I kind of thought I'd like an ESV; but no. All the ones I saw were red letter bibles! I hate them, HATE them! Who can actually read those things? Whoever they are, I do not belong to their number.
Plus I have a problem with the fact that I am a visual thinker, so I know where passages are based on what page/column they're in in my current copy. I don't think I'll ever be able to get rid of it.

Petra24 · Post by **Petra24** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:19 pm

My most recent Bible purchase is a "Rotherham Emphasized Bible". I really like it better than any of the others I have owned. I ordered it online. Amazon has it for around $32. Money well spent.

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:20 pm

Hmm... the little red words don't really bother me too much. It is good to realize that those are interprative, though... they're not in the original at all. But then again, neither are paragraph breaks, verse numbers, and chapter numbers (with a few notable exceptions, like Psalms which does have specific chapters in the Hebrew). I was reading the other day about a guy who, when he is studying a book, copies and pastes the entire text to a word processing program, strips out chapter and verse references and paragraphs, and then reads it for himself. Then he places the divisions where he thinks they should go, based on the contexts and train of thought... it's all opinion anyway... and goes from there. It's an interesting approach; kind of like "extreme Bible study."

If you dislike the red letters, you would REALLY hate an oddball Bible I saw one time... the words of Christ were in GREEN!

The Petra Zone

Josh Mcdowell

red

Little Red Words

Who is online