THE NEXT PETRA PROJECT ?

[rlima]

OK, let's do it:
1. first of all, I live outside US. I live in Brazil, my Country, the place God choose to put me on;
2. I'm not a liberal, only if my political opinions disagree with the majority;
3. Do no think patriotism is equal to Christianity, that's not. Read the Bible, specially the prophets, and more specially Jeremiah;
4. When I say about the lies of President Bush, do not be so angry about me. It's my political opinion, and I will not change it because of you.
5. I'm not a narrow-mind just like you. No offenses.
6. I do not live in a cave. We're on 21st century, and we have the internet, that gives us a lot of information. Just read the news (the non-liberal and the liberal ones).
7. Open your mind. Bush is just a politic, not a saint or a messenger from God. He went on this war just because Iraq's oil. And, as a politic, he's doing his job.
8. I think Petra will do a great job playing and ministrying at the war area, as well as the rest of the world. They must catch all the opportunities, but they must be careful to save their names to not be connected to any political position - liberals, or not.
9. There's life outside US. And (real) freedom.

[SamScales]

rlima,

Just wanted to say to you on point 9: AMEN!!! Because there is always REAL freedom in Jesus Christ, no matter where you live!

[Michael]

5. I'm not a narrow-mind just like you. No offenses.

Be careful... I know he called you a "liberal," but that is not necessarily a personal slur. If you don't want to cause offense, don't intentionally say things that will offend people. Let's listen to Shell here... keep this thread under control or it will get locked.

[spottacus]

Wow, we're really a bunch of intemperate jerks, aren't we!

I'd love to join this discussion, but I don't think it's going in a constructive direction.

[LexingtonPethead]

To MatthewRJ and RLima,

First, about the news quotes from MattRJ... One of your sources promotes gay rights and abortion rights as "right thinking" while the others are just plain socialistic, twisted and biased. Do you ascribe to these views, or are you simply playing a joke?

RLima, brother, you have got to understand that as long as there is a Republican in the White House, America will NEVER ask for permission from an inept organization such as the UN to defend itself. And, standing up for our Christian culture does not make anyone closed-minded - it means that we are holding on to the faith, Christian values, and freedoms upon which our country was founded. If you think Bush was in this for the oil in Iraq, then you have missed the entire point.

I have always heard that much of the world is very liberal and socialistic with their ideas. I am not using the word "liberal" as a slur, but rather as an attempt to describe the views you have posted.

I truly believe that if you understand the affects of liberalism, you would not be ascribing to these ideas about the Iraq war, George Bush, or the United States.

Here are some websites that both of you (and anyone else who is liberal) need to check out in order to get a correct perspective on politics and what is happening with regards to the US:

www.NewsMax.com (this one is excellent for news)
www.FoxNews.com ("fair and balanced")
www.RushLimbaugh.com (Rush is a political genius)
www.Hannity.com (Sean is on top of all issues)
www.MichaelSavage.com (tells it like it is unlike any other)

[LexingtonPethead]

I don't think anyone hear feels that way, Matt RJ. For starters, I don't agree with a lot of the big spending Bush has done to grow the government.

And I don't see the arrogance in communicating the truth about what we have discussed here to people who have been misled.

[Pethead1]

Bush CAN do wrong.

Like taking MY hard earned money and giving it to people who do NOT work. And like when someone breakes our laws now we tell them well sence you already broke the law we will change the law.

We need Reagan.

Like I am even think about voating for a party who says sence I am from the south am a redneck and LOVE NASCAR. Talk about disinfranchisement.

[rlima]

OK, let's do it AGAIN:

1. Again, I'm not a liberal. I am a pastor. So, I do not support gay rights, or abortion. Based on the Bible, I know both are sin, and I teach this on my church.
2. Abortion is sin because it's an innocent's murder. But using the name of God in vain in order to give support to a wrong idea, attitude, intention or plans, or to give support to others' plans, intentions, etc., is also sin.
3. Gay behaviour is sin because God made us male and female, not just two males or two females. But Tony Blair, prime minister from England who's giving support to Bush, is a man who gives support to gay behavior, because he has some homosexual ministers in his Cabinet. Isn't it strange that Bush didn't mention this question to him?
4. I still think Bush isn't infalible. He isn't the Pope !
5. I'm wasting my time on this discussion. It's only political questions, not dogmatic questions.
6. Again, again, and again, please respect the political opinion of other people, different from yours. If someone do not support Bush, or Clinton, or someone else on charge at the US (or other Country), that's ok, don't blame him or send him to hell. It's called Democracy (remember?).
7. Reading the Bible, I found that George W. Bush (like you, me, the guys of Petra and everyone) is a sinner (No? Really???) who needs forgiveness and new life from God through faith in Jesus.
8. George W. Bush didn't die on a cross for me. George W. Bush didn't send his Spirit upon me. George W. Bush didn't give me a Book to drive my life. Do not trade places, please.

[LexingtonPethead]

Actually, it was MatthewRJ who posted the quote that seemingly supported gay rights and abortion. But, it's great to hear that you are a pastor and that you don't support those issues.

I would like to respond to the items as you numbered them:

1. Okay, so you're not a liberal. However, all the negative spin about the war in Iraq is propagated by liberals. So when you accuse Bush of lying about the war and being in it for the oil, it's only fair to expect people to refer to your ideas as being liberal.

4. No one said George W Bush is infallible, nor was it implied. Several of us support the effort made in Iraq, but that doesn't mean we agree with everything GWB does. Both Debbie and I have already mentioned Bush policies we disagree with.

5. I sort of agree with you on this point... discussing this probably won't make any difference in the short term. But it might cause someone to rethink their positions, which could impact other people in positive ways. You just never know.

6. If you want to dislike Bush, that's your perogative. I don't really care. But to say Bush got us into this war because of the oil is ridiculous, and some of us here just can't resist responding to statements that simply aren't true.

7 & 8. We may have some cultural confusion here on these points. We may respect George W Bush and agree with many of his positions and policies, but we do not elevate him as deity. I really don't know where the confusion on this started.

[Pethead1]

We need to rember that Bush wants to get our oil from our own land but the left won't allow it.

Now why would Bush go to war for oil when right here in the USA we have more than enough to fill the needs of our country for years.

OH I forgot, that might kill a bird.

[executioner]

MatthewRJ,

Everytime we start talking about politics of the U.S. your opinion is always very negative. What did we ever do to you or your country(Canada)? Bush is the most Godly man that we have had in the White House in many years, Yes I don't agree with everything he does, but I do know one thing he does what he believes is right in the sight of God. My brother is in Iraq right now serving our country and is proud to do so. You would not believe what conditions that Hussein left Iraq in . The pictures and reporting we see and hear are from the liberal media. I've gotten a first hand eyes to see what it is like and it is nothing like what you see. My brothers unit has found several mass graves. It's a shame that the Christians from around the world don't see what is going on. My Brothers unit talks in length that they believe more people have been gassed and murder in Iraq over the last 15 years then that were murdered under Hitler's regime in the 1940's. Why isn't the liberal media talking about that? DON'T BASHED IT UNTIL YOU'VE LIVED IT!

[executioner]

I'm just tired of people that automactally put the U.S. in the bad catagory, We are doing something that will free these people and make the world a better place, and I think you all are jealous because your countries can't step up to the plate and help someone in need like we can. BTW we don't use Iraq oil and will never have to use their oil. We get our oil from other parts of the region, and our own back yard which is Canada.

[rlima]

Hi, I'm back!
Why some americans are so bold in defending the president, but are not so bold in live the Gospel - I say, live the Gospel, and not live a religious life with a Bible in the hand and an ideology in mind? To live the Gospel means to help the need, the poor, the sick, the homeless, to love the prostitutes, the enemies, including Saddam (why not?).
If mr. Bush isn't deity, why some americans defend him as he would be some kind of "god"? Is because he looks like a godly man? Why he looks to be a godly man? Recitate the Bible? Satan did it to Jesus at the wilderness. Pray in public? The pharisees did it better. To say "God bless America"? Read the book of Amos!
The question isn't jealousy or not (so childish!). The question is: is the invasion reasonable? Ok, Saddam is a ditactor, and is good he's out of command at Iraq, but the main reason isn't fulfilled - chemical weapons, and a connection between Saddam and Osama Bin Laden.
You must understand that US isn't the Promised Land, unless you are a last-day saint. US is an ordinary Country like the others. Be careful your patriotism isn't mixed with the Christian faith. And be careful if Romans 2.24 is a reality for you, because of your patriotism, almost an idolatry.
About "freedom" in Iraq: a friend of mine was missionary in Iraq. He said the church was growing before the invasion, but after the invasion people do not attend the services. It's because the soldiers are identified as "Christians", and killed innocent people (watch the news, the "liberal" and the non liberal ones, open your mind). So, do you want to know the reaction of Iraq's nationals? "If it's Christianity, I'm out"!
Concluding, as MatthewRJ quoted Larry Norman, I'll quote another great Christian singer, Steve Camp: "Hell is burning while the Church sleeps!"

[LexingtonPethead]

Rlima, virtually all or your ideas about the United States, George W Bush, the Iraq war, WMD, and the Iraqi people, are based on erroneous perceptions. They're not reality.

I and others in this thread have tried to shed some light for you in these matters, but either you're not reading them, or you're not understanding them. Either way, we're not communicating very well.

Seriously, it bothers me that people who live outside the US have such twisted views of our country. The way I see it, we are doing a lot of things right, and that's why we're the world's only superpower. Many countries who raise the biggest ruckus can't even defend themselves... just look at France and Germany - they can't even defend themselves!

[rlima]

Dear LexingtonPethead,

I do read all the arguments. But I do not agree with some. That's it!

And it bothers me some americans think they are the "Chosen One". We must understand that, at the New Testament point of view, God choses people, not a specific place or a Country. For example, I'm glad to be Brazilian, I love my Country and I pray for our leaders, but I do not take my patriotism so seriously, because I read the news and I know that here in Brazil we have a lot of problems - corruption, prostitution, slavery, bad financial distribution, among others. I can do some jokes about Brazil, and that's ok, I still love my Country, but I love my God first. So, here's an advice: love your Country, but do not take your patriotism so seriously, but take your faith seriously. You know better than me your internal problems. All we must take seriously is our life with God and our witness of Jesus to others, as says Matthew 6.33.