I agree with this guy.

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shawnpfan2010
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I agree with this guy.

Post by shawnpfan2010 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:24 pm

I did not write this, but I feel the same way this guy does. I have not been in a churh for 2 years now and I feel like I am not missing much.
A guy by the name of Tony Steward wrote this.



This past Christmas was the first time in my life I didn’t go to a church for some sort of service. I’m not in a bible study or small group. In fact being a part of organized religion has completely melted out of my life in the last twelve months.

If you were to ask why, the answer is simple; I’ve not attended because after working in churches for 10 years - two of which some would claim are the best in the country - I haven’t found any value in going.

I’m over the concerts and speeches and the contrived effort to call a gathering of 3,000 people a family. I’m over being encouraged to move even further into the life of a consumer living “my” faith individualistically because that’s the kind of faith that best scales with the organizations efficiency scores.

In 14 months outside the small world of big churches I’m aware of how little of real life they have any grasp on. Of how made up their appearances are, and how little they have to offer at the distance they chose to live life from everyone around them.

What I value now is proximity. The only leaders I care to hear are those willing to know me and be known. Not in some official capacity over Starbucks with their church credit card in hand to take care of the employee expense. But with a friend, a person living honestly in their own right with no agenda or “line” to keep - but possessing the strength of character to have their own voice, doubts and convictions.

Simply put I don’t find that Pastors are honest people - but are purveyors of a culture and pure-breed politicians. They can only voice the culture they want or the one that they are employed by - and they dare not cross it for their honest beliefs (either in self-preservation or religious manipulation) for fear of offending the sensitives of the masses and their overseers.

And please don’t insult me by claiming I’m some bitter outsider speaking from ignorance and indifference. I’ve seen campus pastor after worship pastor after youth pastor at the best of places sleep with their secretaries, leave their families and dive into profound hypocrisy because they were leading a culture and championing a great cause of another man but never seen as valuable enough to be cultivated in their faith.

When an organization ensures culture is grasped but leaves real faith to odds - how could it’s priorities be in the right place?

Unapologetically, whether it be pride, a phase, misplaced angst or a hopeful burst of honesty - I see little value in our modern concert halls and hopeful authors. I find pulpits full of small minds, impatient elitists and disconnected politicians. I find them offering very little in comparison to the grand nature of our God, his Word, and the Faith his Son has left us to live out. I see none call people to greatness of soul, honesty of intellect, conviction of heart and freedom of voice - cause then they wouldn’t need them anymore.

Some will claim they do - but they never manage it without some hook or required subjection into a position and value below the leadership.

Why bring it up?

I’m relearning honesty after being in that world as a profession for more then 10 years. I’m still trying to find out what I think, what it means, and how a real faith in Jesus still exists in my life. I’m detoxing and looking for what remains that is real, that is love, and that is true. And this is simply one conclusion in the search, one that catches me by surprise for the ease of which it has been true.
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by rexreed » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:10 pm

I feel your pain, organized anything can really bum a person out. When you actually work in a church I can only imagine the behind the scenes stuff that is disheartening. Perhaps one day you will join a church that is worthwhile to you. :)
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by gman » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:23 pm

Sounds to me like that guy is going to the wrong kind of churches.
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by rexreed » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:25 pm

gman wrote:Sounds to me like that guy is going to the wrong kind of churches.
There is no shortage of "wrong churches" for some folks. Perhaps working at church is another problem.
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by executioner » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:27 am

I worked at a church for a time and the way you have to look at it is that they are just as human as anyone else and have fallen short with their sinful nature.
I agree with Gman and feel that this person has just gotten involved with the wrong churches. 2 Scriptures that come to mind when seeing this is as believers we should not forsake ourselves by not being in assembly with other believers and also I feel by giving up on church(not religion) I feel that Christian has stop running the race that has been set before him; I do believe his faith has diminished and he has stop growing as a believer.
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by shawnpfan2010 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:51 am

I live in Tulsa Ok, the buckle of the Bible belt, and many of our BIG churches are starting to not be so big. The church I attended for 12 or so years has seen a steady decline of people attending on sunday morning. It used to have 4 services now they are down to 2. They used to have 5-6 thousand people every sunday now only 2-3. I think a lot of people like myself are tired of the churches doing the Joel Osteen gospel thing. When we had a great pastor who preached the gospel and had alter calls after every service the church was growing and peoples lives were changing. Now we have a pastor who teaches and we have tv's all over the place, trying to make it more appealing to the younger crowd and it simply is not working. When I go from time to time I can feel a difference in the churh it feels dead now. Churches in America need to get back to the basics and stop trying to make eveyone feel good and telling them if they pet their dogs and hug their cats life we always be perfect for them.
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by brent » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:41 pm

Dude, my fellow Tulsan, you must realize that you live in the town that supports most of the heretical evangelists. Some of them are based there. There are great churches in Tulsa. Don't get caught up in the Victor Christian Center, Rhema, Grace Fellowship, Guts and Church on the Move madness. Those places are so large that there is no hope of joining a close knit family. That was the whole point of the church. Jesus said that following Him would not unite the world, but would divide it. This is the purpose of the church, to stand in the gap for the earthly family. God, through the Holy Spirit moves the church collectively, assembled. It is in the collective assembly that the gifts are practiced on each other. Most of the churches in Tulsa swap sheep. If you go out The Church at Battle Creek in BA, you should find good teaching. I know a few on staff there. If you want something smaller, I have friends that go to Sanctuary and love it. They were REALLY tired of church politics and BS, having just helped a church live through a split....twice.
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by Shell » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:12 pm

I can understand where he is coming from. I had a similar opinion about "organized religion" and went through a time (a number of years ago now) where I was sort of sour on the whole church attendance thing.

Keeping in mind that there are going to be problems anywhere you have a group of people can keep things in perspective (although the problems might be more predominant in some groups than others). :mrgreen: If the church makes a conscious decision at the leadership and general member level to follow the Bible, encourage a nurturing atmosphere, and reach out to each other and unbelievers, and then ask God to help them in that process, the problems won't be so overwhelming.

The problem with huge churches with big television ministries is that the focus sooner or later if they're not careful will become bringing in the money to keep the big television ministry going no matter what. Things are bound to get messed up when that is the case, for reasons that Brent pointed out. Smaller churches can get messed up too if people focus on their own interests and/or agenda rather than being obedient to God and reaching out to others. I grew up in a church like that. It's only by God's grace that I want anything to do with church now, and I go to a church that has the right priorities.
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I don't.

Post by Jonathan » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:29 am

I read this that he is a whiny cynic whose only preference was to be in high-profile churches.

Depending on his scope of influence, he will bring comfort to those who need to be in a church to leave a church, whether they are in a "good" one or not. He decries bowing to culture, but then wants to do his own Postmodernist thing. It's a shame he defines his corporate church experience by the fallenness of man and not the transformational power of God.

Who keeps the congregation of Bedside Baptist accountable? Who preaches into their lives? Who provides for them in a time of need? What if you have a gift or life experience or testimony beneficial in building someone else up? Who checks their lifestyle or culture against the word of God? Who encourages growth? Who demonstrates to them their lives are worth something when they want to throw it away? Why doesn't everyone get every spiritual gift? Who's gonna do their funeral (there are practical questions as well)? I can't speak about anyone else, but these are things that have helped me grow in Jesus.

Mild sarcasm ahead: If one is such a spiritual giant on his own, holding all the answers, perhaps he should lead a flock?

God calls preachers, gives criteria for church officers and teachers, and established the church. God commanded us not to forsake assembly. I don't mean to suggest that a glass building with electric worship is required to encounter God, but if you can be in a local church body, be in a local church body. I can't predict the future, but I'd guess that in the US, this privilege to be able to meet together as a Bible-believing, Christ-centered church is eroding, through headline-grabbing abuse, sensational phoniness, cynical disinterest and eventual government regulation.

There are still churches where the gospel is preached in power and where disciples are made. We were not meant to isolate ourselves, it's a battle. I say this in love, having had similar thoughts as yours in the past, wrestle with your decision.
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by epdc » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:36 pm

I totally agree with this guy but I do understand that not everyone share this same experiences.

I have been in churches where you can actually call them family, you grow spiritually and make meaningful relationships but I have also been in really sad situations of hipocrisy.

Right now I´m not attending any church (I felt that disappointment too about churches) and honestly my relationship with God couldnpt be better. But, dont take my words as the only truth, I´m talking about me, it depends of each person´s personal experience, I respect people who keep attending a church and also respect people who don´t but have a realtionship with God.
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by brent » Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:44 am

Those who have been mis-handled, mis-lead, abused, etc have a harder time with being vulnerable, relaxing, and actually engaging. Christians, especially those unsuspecting, less mature, naturally recoil from the the very organization that should be safe. It is very hard to accept black and white, "You HAVE to love church IF you love God."

Well, I don't love some because they are a business, and there is one fat AMWAY cat at the top of the pyramid scheme doing well, while the rest strive to be like him, but constantly live in a state of confused depression because they can't make it. Of course they will not, as long as they are not the ones receiving what is in the offering plate.I think that is a command and not something of a trait per se. I don't love those churches he was talking about either. They make me sick.

The important thing is to realize that Christianity is the family of God. God wants all of his family members to care for one another. God wants all of his family members to be cared for. No matter who you are, you have something to contribute. No matter who you are, you need someone to contribute to you. Find a branch you like, that is healthy, and get grafted.
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by brent » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:27 am

You left out the qualifier for that last part. My point is that saved people, who go to a church that is incorrect or abusive do damage, and after the damage is done, it is hard for those hurt individuals to go back for more.

It's a good thing that the church has nothing to do with salvation.
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by epdc » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:30 pm

wowo wow wow, hold on a second, define "church", do you mean the system, the people? what do you mean by church?

You can love church and not neccesaarily attending. I have christian friends that I love very much. In my personal case, I still read the Bible, I still pray, I still have a relationship with God and for right now I dont feel comfortable going to a church and people should accept that and not inmediately assuming Im wrong. Each person is different and every relationship with God is different, God knows all the hearts and He is the only one who can say something if a person is not attending a church. I´m mentioning myself as an example but this apply to many people who for the moment have their personal reasons for not going to church. Everyone walks with an specific rythm, instead of juding people for not going to church, we should pray and wait for that person to make the decision to go because honestly, I have been there (in both sides), when people pressure that is not ok that you go to church you get to feel stress and less interested in going.
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Re: I agree with this guy.

Post by Shell » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:45 pm

You're pretty close to the same age I was when I went through my issues Elo.

No, church attendance is not a requirement for salvation, but it is helpful to be around other believers. And no, there is nothing wrong with not subjecting yourself to a negative environment. A big reason I had issues with church attendance was because the church I grew up in judged you and based your worth to God according to whether you had a perfect church attendance record. They put way too much emphasis on being at church all the time and not enough emphasis on what to do the rest of the week. There are plenty of people who park their rears in church every week who don't have hearts for God. The leadership and members have to work together to make the church one with a good environment and make pleasing God and reaching out to others a priority.

You may have to look around some, but there are churches that are Bible believing, focus on God and are nurturing. And you do have to be there because you want to be, I agree it's pointless to be there because you feel pressured or obligated.

E-mail me when you get a chance Elo, it's been awhile. :-)
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