US Govt Health Jay Sekulow etc.

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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by Mountain Man » Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:16 pm

p-freak wrote:If you read the Old Testament you can't ignore the fact that particularly the issue of social justice is the most pervasive theme there and that the prophets were given the task to remind the priests and kings of their role in administering social justice.
Sorry, but I hate the term "social justice", and I think you're wrong in saying that the Bible advocates social justice. It doesn't. What it advocates is justice, plain and simple. "Social justice", at least in today's context, has been warped to the point that it almost always means the opposite of real justice.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by brent » Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:54 am

It is not the job of our government to fix poverty. The original, limited, job of the government is to provide protection for the land, the people, trading, etc. The government does not have the responsibility of creating jobs, wealth, etc. Those things are up to the citizens. Those things are up to THE CHURCH. When ministries and charitable organizations handle it, things get done. When the politicians dip into the process, it stalls and becomes corrupt.

The church is to be helping people out of poverty. You and I are. Expecting the government to do it is passing on our responsibility and obligation to someone else. The Democrats SAY they want to help poverty, but their social programs force people into bondage and dependency. There are all kinds of people who milk a system designed to help people, some of which cannot get the help they need. So, if you want to find someone in error, how about the Church? Less than two percent of church goers tithe or give money. Most churches now are struggling to survive or are so self absorbed that they think they need millions of dollars in production equipment for their young, untalented, three chord and a capo guitar playing, messy haired, sloppy. "worship leaders" to perform. Come on.

You don't have to pick a political party. Pick the church and get busy.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by p-freak » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:56 am

brent wrote:It is not the job of our government to fix poverty. The original, limited, job of the government is to provide protection for the land, the people, trading, etc. The government does not have the responsibility of creating jobs, wealth, etc. Those things are up to the citizens. Those things are up to THE CHURCH. When ministries and charitable organizations handle it, things get done. When the politicians dip into the process, it stalls and becomes corrupt.

The church is to be helping people out of poverty. You and I are. Expecting the government to do it is passing on our responsibility and obligation to someone else. The Democrats SAY they want to help poverty, but their social programs force people into bondage and dependency. There are all kinds of people who milk a system designed to help people, some of which cannot get the help they need. So, if you want to find someone in error, how about the Church? Less than two percent of church goers tithe or give money. Most churches now are struggling to survive or are so self absorbed that they think they need millions of dollars in production equipment for their young, untalented, three chord and a capo guitar playing, messy haired, sloppy. "worship leaders" to perform. Come on.

You don't have to pick a political party. Pick the church and get busy.
There's our cultural difference. Because your government doesn't see this as their task, you believe it isn't. Because my government does see this as their task, I believe it is. I am able to defend that position on biblical grounds and you are too. Same issue, different choices.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by executioner » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:28 am

p-freak wrote:
brent wrote:It is not the job of our government to fix poverty. The original, limited, job of the government is to provide protection for the land, the people, trading, etc. The government does not have the responsibility of creating jobs, wealth, etc. Those things are up to the citizens. Those things are up to THE CHURCH. When ministries and charitable organizations handle it, things get done. When the politicians dip into the process, it stalls and becomes corrupt.

The church is to be helping people out of poverty. You and I are. Expecting the government to do it is passing on our responsibility and obligation to someone else. The Democrats SAY they want to help poverty, but their social programs force people into bondage and dependency. There are all kinds of people who milk a system designed to help people, some of which cannot get the help they need. So, if you want to find someone in error, how about the Church? Less than two percent of church goers tithe or give money. Most churches now are struggling to survive or are so self absorbed that they think they need millions of dollars in production equipment for their young, untalented, three chord and a capo guitar playing, messy haired, sloppy. "worship leaders" to perform. Come on.

You don't have to pick a political party. Pick the church and get busy.
There's our cultural difference. Because your government doesn't see this as their task, you believe it isn't. Because my government does see this as their task, I believe it is. I am able to defend that position on biblical grounds and you are too. Same issue, different choices.
Not saying you are wrong but I would like to see the Biblical side on it being the governments responsibility.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by executioner » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:46 am

p-freak wrote:
brent wrote:John and Jay are:
1. For freedom.
2. For protection of life and against killing unborn babies against their will. Democrats are for killing babies against their will, so is the devil.
3. Against the restrictions and impedances put on gathering lawfully to pray, worship. Jay is not fighting for any one denomination or religion. Jay is in fact a Jew that believes in Jesus Christ. He fights for all. Side note: freedom to practice religion of choice is not Biblical. I would say that this is unbiblical. God says "Thou shalt not have other gods before me. I AM THE LORD THY GOD." This is an American thing. So, this is more of a fight for equality thing IMO.
4. Against racism.
5. For releasing ministers, missionaries, citizens held illegally, against their will, against international laws, treaties, etc. Jay has been responsible for getting some released when the government would not or could not. This sounds like the work the church SHOULD be doing to me.
6. For the US Constitution and for the government staying out of the way of it. This has become a party thing. Democrats, such as our president, don't like the Constitution, do not enforce what they don't like, or act like it is not there at all in some areas. The Constitution gives us certain rights, and that is what John and Jay want to preserve. It should not be a Republican, Democrat or third party thing. People take the Bible and try to make it way what it does not say. Politicians and lawyers do the same with the Constitution to make it say what benefits them.

These are just of the topics off of the top of my head. If you are for killing babies, for giving preferential treatment to religions other than Christianity, for denying religious rights, for allowing your Christian citizens to sit in jail for giving humanitarian aid, for blocking the right to lawfully assemble because you do not like the reason for the assembly, then you ARE an unbiblical Democrat!

Sorry. Actions and products of those actions identify you. When we stand before judgement, we can claim the Christian label all we want to, but we will be judged by our actions. We will be rewarded accordingly.
Most of the points you mention are commendable. The problem with politics is that neither side, nor any party, will represent my views fully. So I have to choose. You forget that your Biblical interpretation is coloured by your cultural americanity. Saying the right thing about one issue, doesn't necessarily make me run to your party. Conservative politics in America are well-known for ignoring the problems of poverty, environmental stewardship and social responsibility and they are quite to defend themselves that these issues for a believer are a matter of personal responsibility and don't involve the government. If you read the Old Testament you can't ignore the fact that particularly the issue of social justice is the most pervasive theme there and that the prophets were given the task to remind the priests and kings of their role in administering social justice. So there's my point of view based on the same Bible. I'm sure your point of view is just as valid, but I make different choice that are at least equally well-grounded in scripture and faith.

Recent studies show in America that the social conservative gives more of their time, money & recourses to help out the poor and needy, probably the ONLY thing we fail on is the environment protection which even from our side has come a long way; The main issue I and others have about the environment protection status is putting the animals, trees, and other living things above and beyond the human life. The human life is the one & only living thing on this earth that is made in the image & likeness of God, and the environmentalists have made a point that human life has never been a sacred item on their so called agenda.
I am NOT a Republican! I've never voted down party lines, and most of the conservatives that I know vote like I do. When someone from another country comes and says things like this without knowing the whole truth about what America is really chaps me the wrong way. My Biblical interpretation has NOTHING to do and is NOT colored by my cultural americanity.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by Mountain Man » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:20 pm

Matthew RJ wrote:And Biblical justice is much broader than the legal realm determining guilt, and has implications for society and how the poor are treated.
I am not under the assumption that justice is a purely legal issue. But let's not add unnecessary qualifiers to the term. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Otherwise you have people promoting injustice in the name of justice.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by Mountain Man » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:38 pm

p-freak wrote:There's our cultural difference. Because your government doesn't see this as their task, you believe it isn't. Because my government does see this as their task, I believe it is. I am able to defend that position on biblical grounds and you are too. Same issue, different choices.
Whether or not you can make a Biblical case for government "charity", it doesn't do anything to address the fact that governments are traditionally extremely bad at it, and no government in the history of the world has ever successfully eliminated poverty. In fact, the most common result is that it gets dramatically worse.

On a related note, the Bible is written for the Church, not for governments, and I don't see anything in the Bible that says that the Church should establish itself as a government. In fact, the Bible is largely apolitical, and the one time that the pharisees tried to draw Jesus into a political debate, his response was essentially to let the government worry about itself because we have more important things to do.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by brent » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:24 pm

Wow. You guys connected a whole bag full of invisible dots.
Last edited by brent on Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by thunderecho » Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:50 pm

p-freak wrote:
brent wrote:It is not the job of our government to fix poverty. The original, limited, job of the government is to provide protection for the land, the people, trading, etc. The government does not have the responsibility of creating jobs, wealth, etc. Those things are up to the citizens. Those things are up to THE CHURCH. When ministries and charitable organizations handle it, things get done. When the politicians dip into the process, it stalls and becomes corrupt.

The church is to be helping people out of poverty. You and I are. Expecting the government to do it is passing on our responsibility and obligation to someone else. The Democrats SAY they want to help poverty, but their social programs force people into bondage and dependency. There are all kinds of people who milk a system designed to help people, some of which cannot get the help they need. So, if you want to find someone in error, how about the Church? Less than two percent of church goers tithe or give money. Most churches now are struggling to survive or are so self absorbed that they think they need millions of dollars in production equipment for their young, untalented, three chord and a capo guitar playing, messy haired, sloppy. "worship leaders" to perform. Come on.

You don't have to pick a political party. Pick the church and get busy.
There's our cultural difference. Because your government doesn't see this as their task, you believe it isn't. Because my government does see this as their task, I believe it is. I am able to defend that position on biblical grounds and you are too. Same issue, different choices.
The more people become dependent on their government the less independence they have.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by brent » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:21 pm

Right,

Trust in the Lord....not the government.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by Mountain Man » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:25 pm

Matthew RJ wrote:When it comes to health care, a recent survey said 90-95 % of Canadians were happy with their health care system. I've got no complaints, and I would think the government can deliver a better health care system than a church.
Without getting into the merits of socialized healthcare versus private insurance, I'll simply point out that government's don't actually provide healthcare. What they do, at least in theory, is pay the healthcare system to provide services to its citizens. To that end, I think the average church does a better job of paying their bills than any government. For that matter, I'm aware of some churches that provide low cost or even free clinics for people who couldn't otherwise afford to go to a doctor.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by gman » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:35 am

I'll just throw out a couple thoughts on the scattered dots. Regarding healthcare, I don't believe the Gov't should be involved in it the way it is trying to be. Healthcare should largely be a separate private industry. If the Gov't has any role in it, it should limited to offering financial help to really needy people who have trouble paying for the care they receive. Then again, maybe the Gov't shouldn't be needed there. Churches, private organizations and charities have done great work in that respect, but Gov't wants to kick them to the curb and convince people that only Gov't can do it.

I'm a little scatter brained this morning, but I think this is relevant to many things that have been said. Look at what happened, I believe in Louisiana at a Walmart. People using their food stamp benefit cards go in and find out that the system is not functioning right, and is reporting an unlimited balance on their cards. It didn't take long for word to spread and within a few hours the grocery department was decimated. Once the system was fixed and balances returned to normal, the remaining folks who realized they couldn't pay for everything they had loaded into their carts abandoned their carts, leaving Walmart employees to put everything back. Lack of morality meets Gov't assistance. People try to take advantage of the system any way they can, and when they system goes wild, so do they.

Regarding biblical interpretation. In my church, and also when I was in a Christian college, in a lot of our study, especially when it comes to Paul's letters, a lot of time is/was spent on looking at the context and culture in which those scriptures were written, and allowing that to shape our understanding.
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by Jan » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:43 am

gman wrote: Lack of morality meets Gov't assistance. People try to take advantage of the system any way they can, and when they system goes wild, so do they.
YES!!!
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by Mountain Man » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:24 pm

Matthew RJ wrote:Ever heard the expression "don't throw the baby out with the bath water?"
Ever heard the phrase "When the problem is government, the solution is not more government"?
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Re: New take on Never Been Any Reason

Post by brent » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:12 pm

The problem with anti-Americans and anti-conservative Americans is their accusations and generalizations are so drastic. They dream up extreme situations that do not, or rarely, exist. For instance, people bring up the rape and/or incest elements in the abortion arguments. That is so rare. The majority of abortions are out of convenience or to save face. There are organizations outside of the government providing aid. In fact. the government is the least effective at social programs. Why? The charities have financial over sight and must obey the law. The government does not. I would rather trust the Salvation Army than the US Government. Some of the best US charities and research organizations exist outside of the government and help people outside of the government. The government is less efficient, corrupt, and accountable to it's self, which is a joke.

Matthew. Nobody, including the Republican party, wants people in need to parish needlessly. But face it, third world countries see our poor people living fat. The poor get cell phones, emergency health care, food stamps, free education, etc, etc. Third world countries view our poor as rich!

The big argument for Americans is access, management and abuse of these programs. Americans want to see the waste and pandering gone. Neither the Democrats nor Republicans really want to do anything about it. They want to be re-elected. It's just like the health care thing we are getting into now. It sounds like a good idea, but the downside is that healthy people, who otherwise don't have medical bills or high insurance, are going to be forced into paying the same high premiums as someone who has lived their life abusing their body, smoking, getting cancer, aids, etc, There is no equality or incentive to better yourself. Poor people have no incentive to get educated and be productive.

Why should my insurance go up $1k per month (and it is) so someone who is lazy can have something they already get and do not pay for? How is that right? Why should the government take the food out of my family's mouth and give it to someone else? I work HARD! They don't. I earn my money and my tax dollars are their pay checks. Come on. THIS is robbery. Nobody cares about us. They only care about the fictitious poster children for their programs and ideals.

This young generation wants free education, free college, free music, free movies, free concerts, etc, etc. Nobody wants to pay for what they use. That simply does not work in any country/economy. It sure as heck does not work in Heaven, on earth, in God's Kingdom and economy. We were created to work. We will work in Heaven. We are created to take pride in our work. There is no pride in being a beggar.

People point at our culture and say that it has skewed how I read scripture. That is bogus. I try to read it as the first century followers did, in contest. There is nothing in my American way of life that colors my belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have found the people pointing their finger at me are just as guilty of doing the same thing. They use what their government does as substantiation of their interpretation of scripture.
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