John MacArthur, Cessation Theology and Trainspotting for Cav

A place for Petra fans to discuss other topics
Post Reply
User avatar
zman7720000
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 301
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:22 pm
#1 Album: CITAS
Pethead since: 1989
x 58

John MacArthur, Cessation Theology and Trainspotting for Cav

Post by zman7720000 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:58 pm

The Rev. John F. MacArthur has unleashed the third wave in his assault against the pentecostal / charismatic movement with his newest book entitled Strange Fire. Below I have linked to a series of articles published by Charisma Magazine as a rebuttal. As well as the text of one written by the former president of my alma mater, Dr. Mark Rutland . What I'm looking for from you is not so much your theology, we all have our own as much as your thoughts of the tone of the conversation! How is each side handling themselves with this matter from a christian standpoint?

http://www.charismamag.com/search?searc ... 0]=content

The arrogance of making experience into a theology that trumps Scripture is exceeded only by the arrogance of making lack of experience into a theology that trumps Scripture.

In Irvine Welsh's dark Scottish novel Trainspotting, a bum living in an abandoned train station tells others he is watching for trains. Of course it is useless. It is useless there, at least, in that abandoned station. Trains still run elsewhere in Scotland. Just not there.

Here is a simple truth: Just because trains don't run past your house doesn't mean there's no such thing as trains. Furthermore, if there are no trains where you are, why not check out other, more active train stations? Trainspotting for cave dwellers is dismally disappointing business, and train denial is absurdly arrogant.

I was in a remote village deep in the Peruvian rain forest when a jet coursed through the sky overhead. The chief asked if that is how I came to Peru, which launched a long, comic community discussion of air travel. The kibitzers around us joined in with ludicrous comments on how airplanes looked and worked, all of which were utterly absurd. Finally I paced off what I thought were the dimensions of a 707, which may have been as far off as their ideas were. When they realized what I was showing them could have held every person in their village, the arguments and denials went up in intensity. Finally the chief raised his hand and spoke what to this day seems like great wisdom:

"I have never seen an airplane except up there in the sky. I cannot imagine what something like that looks like on the ground. They look very small to me in the sky, but birds look smaller to me in the sky."

His own wife objected, "Why should we believe this man?"

He answered her with a question: "Why should we doubt him? He got here somehow. I hope someday to see an airplane on the ground. Until then I will just wait."

Remarkable and memorable wisdom from a man who lived in a hut.

Cessation theology, so-called, is, astonishingly enough, exactly what it denounces: completely nonbiblical. There is absolutely no clear biblical statement that the gifts of the Spirit have gone anywhere, especially away. How could they go away? What could that possibly even mean? The Holy Spirit has not taken the last train for the coast. The gifts are His gifts. They were not the possession of the apostles nor of the church in any time or location. Where the Spirit is, the gifts are.

Why those gifts are more or less visible in action at various periods of church history is a valid question—a profoundly convicting question. Why they are sometimes, perhaps even frequently, misused and abused is another valid question—an even more convicting question. Gatherings of concerned and loving believers should be held to sort through these painful questions and others.

Denouncing all who dare to believe in the validity of biblical gifts in this and every age is a cave-dweller's point of view: Because I have never seen a train, there are no trains. It also smacks of an incredible conceit. "If God were going to manifest His gifts anywhere in any time among any group, it would surely be now among me and my friends." Hmmmm.

On Jan. 6, 2012, an American conductor driving his train 30 miles an hour too fast wrecked while texting. A Spanish conductor who wrecked his train was talking on the phone at the time. On Aug. 13, the pilot and the co-pilot of a British airliner both fell asleep in flight. Fell asleep! Other pilots have been caught napping, flying under the influence and even landing at the wrong airport. Yet despite our outrage at such shenanigans, we still board airplanes and ride trains. We do not deny their existence, and we do not assemble conferences denouncing all pilots as reprobate frauds and all those who trust them as misguided fools.

It is sophomoric and dismissive to discount the validity of anything—any philosophy, faith or belief—on the grounds that some or even many of its proponents are other than what they should be. This is the very reasoning that atheists use to dismiss Christianity because of the Crusades or the war in Ireland. Imagine how ludicrous it would be to dismiss Calvinism out of hand because some organizations have espoused unbiblical stands on moral issues such as the ordaining of homosexuals.

Many years ago, I pastored a country church in Georgia—several of whose members still doubted Neil Armstrong ever walked on the moon. Despite the fact it was televised—or perhaps because it was—several folks in my church denied the reality of the entire event. Nothing could convince them otherwise. In part, they were simply dubious of the government and reckoned anything on television was no more "real" than Bonanza. An even stronger factor in their disbelief, however, was the fact that the very possibility of such a thing as a man on the moon was beyond their wildest imagination. Because they couldn't imagine it, they also could not imagine anyone else could imagine it, let alone make it happen.

The insularity of unimaginative country folk with regard to space travel is excusable if a bit humorous. The willingness of educated sophisticates in the body of Christ to assume God has withdrawn the gifts of the Spirit simply because they have not seen them lately is outrageous. To castigate those who claim to have seen them as charlatans or beguiled ignoramuses is reprehensible.

One cessation writer blogged, "Some of my best friends are charismatics." Really? I mean, really? It is always the most prejudiced who claim that among their "best friends" are blacks or Jews or whomever it is they then proceed to defame. Such a statement is simply an insult.

Furthermore, it is not only insular to dismiss the operation of the gifts out of hand, it is also ethnocentric at a level as to verge on racism and American neo-imperialism. The current flow of God's Holy Spirit is a worldwide reality.

There are African villagers who cannot read one word of anything written by American Calvinists but who move in New Testament power and for whom there is no other normal than the gifts of the Spirit. They would certainly be surprised to hear that Americans in megachurches have announced the gifts have been withdrawn. "You cannot find the gifts?" they would ask. "Come to Africa. They are here."

Finally, one apologist for cessationism writes that "God has decided" the season of the gifts is over. Are you sure? If false prophecy is blasphemy—and it is—then announcing what "God has decided" without finding the decision clearly—clearly—announced in Scripture is certainly dangerous business. How does he know what God has decided? He assumed he knows what God has decided because surely God would not use someone else, somewhere else. Surely. If that writer has not seen a train for a while, then surely the trains don't run anymore, anywhere.

The problem is the Bible never says the gifts would stop this side of heaven. That is the crux. Show me in the Bible. That is the bottom line.

Trainspotting is difficult business in a cave. Sitting around a campfire with blokes who live in the same cave telling each other trains no longer exist is just as likely to produce narrow-gauge thinkers who accuse others of blasphemy and excuse their own spiritual envy.

Get out of your cave. Get out in the world. Meet those who believe in trains—who, God forbid, claim to have actually ridden on them, as unimaginable to you as that may be. Instead of justifying your position by propping up pathetic and bogus straw men whom you delight in setting fire to, why not engage in meaningful discussion with heavyweights?

Get out of the cave where you and your cave-dwelling friends clap each other on the back and congratulate yourselves that you can see charlatans for what they are. Open your eyes to men like Dr. Paul Walker, Dr. Jack Hayford, Tommy Barnett and Dr. Doug Beacham. There is a big world outside—just outside the mouth of your tiny and dark cavern. Be brave. Go on, be brave. Step out into the light and just see what is out there.

Mark Rutland is the author of 14 books. He also leads a missions and church-planting organization, Global Servants.
0 x
"Ya take a bath each Sunday, if you need it or not
And ya go to work on Monday even when it's hot"

User avatar
knotodiswrld
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:42 pm
#1 Album: This Means War
Pethead since: 1984
x 1

Re: John MacArthur, Cessation Theology and Trainspotting for

Post by knotodiswrld » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:11 am

What little I have read of MacArthur basically went like this:

1. Find the most out-there, lunatic fringe groups claiming to be Pentecostal that you possibly can ... groups that make snake handlers look like Methodists.

2. Imply - if not assert outright - that these groups represent the mainstream of the Pentecostal movement.

3. Argue against the most extreme elements of said groups, which isn't hard to do.

4. Pretend that all Pentecostals share ALL of the extreme traits of ALL these extreme groups, even though said traits are often mutually exclusive.

5. Conclude that this constitutes proof that Pentecostal and Charismatic theology are therefore invalid.

I know that seems snarky on my part, but that's how he approaches the subject. I find his tone so distasteful and his lack of research so glaring that I just can't bear to read more a few pages.

I will say this. When it comes to manifestations of the Work of The Holy Spirit, I would caution anyone who would speak against this Work. Remember Christ's warning:
Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
I know that many people believe that "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" involves rejection of Christ. But here Christ specifically refers to speaking against The Holy Spirit. Moreover, He makes this warning after the Pharisees have said this:

Mattew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
The Pharisees just spoken against the work of God, blaming it on satan. Jesus cautions them not to speak against the Holy Spirit in this fashion.

I fear greatly for the souls of those who credit the modern occurrences of the Gifts and Manifestations of The Holy Spirit to the work of any other spirit. It bothers me so much that I almost couldn't type the preceding sentence because even speaking of it is closer to it that I want to get.

Please, even if you don't agree with Pentecostal or Charismatic theology, please be careful how you speak of such manifestations.
0 x
The Master of The Earth became a servant of no worth
And paid a kings ransom for my soul

brent
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 4302
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:06 am
x 149

Re: John MacArthur, Cessation Theology and Trainspotting for

Post by brent » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:57 am

MacAuthur is off on a bunch of minor stuff in my opinion. He was on a panel I saw on TBN once. The panel was made up of apologists. He was asked about CCM. He said he thought it was not useful, he did not like it, did not agree with it. He thought we should listen to hymns. OK, don't get me started.

It is easy to pick on Charismatics because they are wildly wresting scripture…most of them, most of the time. Why? They practice their "gifts" incorrectly, in public, in a group setting, together and not one at a time, without proper interpretation. The biggest most powerful gift is interpretation. Anyone can babel, but no two people will interpret the same thing the same way.

A couple of years ago, a recording was sent to some of the biggest proponents of tongues in the Charismatic movement, and no two responses came back the same. God is not the author of confusion.

I agree that some gifts have timed out with the Apostolic ministry. It is not common for people to be raised from the dead. It is not common for people to be healed on the spot with no side effects, or grow limbs immediately. It is not common for lots of things to happen that used to. The bible is accessible to all people in the US now. You have to not want to read one to not find it.

The Holy Spirit is here, but many people have butchered what the Holy Spirit does to and for us. He is at work in our lives BEFORE we even come to a time of conviction to accept salvation. The Holy Spirit is not a gift that comes after salvation, where you have to wait and wait and wait for it, practicing babble until it hits. This is what many of the big boys teach. They teach you are not saved until you speak in tongues. Sorry. That is not scriptural. If tongues are a gift, the gift is given when you need it. It is not given when you request it, or it would not be a gift. It is not something you develop, or it would not be a gift.

I know for a fact that tongues, as in logos, happens now. It happens on the mission field in foreign countries. I know for a fact that a missionary in Romania talked his way out of being murdered by speaking English to soldiers who did not speak English. They had a conversation in their native tongues and the soldiers heard the Gospel. My former sister-in-law had the same experience in Mexico, witnessing to a little Spanish speaking boy. They both looked at each other after it was over and smiled, not knowing what had happened. Well, she knew, but in the heat of it, she didn't.

Most Charismatic big name teachers are Word of Faith teachers as well, which is a bastardization of scripture. God is not our cosmic bell boy. Because of their WOF teaching, they mess up the atonement, and then salvation as well, making it a work. Keep in mind, I have worked for most of those people you see on TV and have their own materials.

A good book to get is Counterfeit Revival. Hank uses transcripts. The audio book has the recordings. It is a good read.

Many of the things that go on in these services are spooky and satanic. All of the subliminal messages, manipulation through music, spoken word, etc. The hysteria (laughing, convulsions, falling out, staged healings, etc). Most of these guys have a formula for their services and they do not deviate from it. It is all about MONEY. It is a way to steer people to reach for their wallets.

The bible says to conduct your church services in decency and in order. If your Charismatic service allows simultaneous tongues, more than one at a time, more than three (that is the cut-off), without interpretation, THEN YOUR CHURCH IS NOT OPERATING WITHIN BIBLICAL PARAMETERS. If you have hysterical, sensational crap going on like the laughter, the puking of bad spirits, snake handling, drinking bleach, and all of that, you are in a demonic cult and you need to leave.
0 x

User avatar
knotodiswrld
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:42 pm
#1 Album: This Means War
Pethead since: 1984
x 1

Re: John MacArthur, Cessation Theology and Trainspotting for

Post by knotodiswrld » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:11 am

Brent wrote:A couple of years ago, a recording was sent to some of the biggest proponents of tongues in the Charismatic movement, and no two responses came back the same. God is not the author of confusion.
I keep seeing this claim, but I've never seen anyone document it. Would you mind providing the documentation on this? Frankly, I'm just not buying it. I know you believe it. I know someone you trust told you, and I assume that person heard it from someone he/she trusted. But it has all the elements of good old fashioned urban legend. I just plain don't believe it happened.

First, no properly trained Pentecostal pastor would even listen to such a tape under such circumstances. As an Assemblies of God minister, I can tell you that if I received such a recording, I would send it back to the sender, unopened, with a warning similar to what I stated above.

Interpretations are given by God and God alone. He and only He decides who will receive the interpretation. No responsible Pentecostal or Charismatic pastor would even entertain the notion of such a vile experiment.

If you can provide documentation of this experiment, I will be very interested. But I just can't imagine anyone Pentecostal pastor I know taking part in this. And frankly, in my opinion, those who conducted the experiment, if it happened, are as guilty of grieving the Holy Spirit as are any of the "pastors" who supposedly gave conflicting interpretations.
Brent wrote:I agree that some gifts have timed out with the Apostolic ministry. It is not common for people to be raised from the dead. It is not common for people to be healed on the spot with no side effects, or grow limbs immediately. It is not common for lots of things to happen that used to. The bible is accessible to all people in the US now. You have to not want to read one to not find it.
Resurrections from the dead were not common when Christ walked the Earth. On the other hand, I have experienced instantaneous, miraculous healing of chronic illness or injury on three separate occasions. And I live in the United States and have medical insurance. (Fully Obamacare compliant, BTW.) It is much more common this will be in countries where they do not have access to such technology.

The accessibility of scripture is irrelevant to the question of Cessation. The argument, "We have the Bible, so the gifts are not needed" is an extra-Biblical argument. Not only does it have no basis in Scripture, but it also has no basis in facts, reason, or logic.

I mean really, what's the connection. Why would having the Bible mean the gifts cease. It simply doesn't follow.
Brent wrote:The Holy Spirit is not a gift that comes after salvation, where you have to wait and wait and wait for it, practicing babble until it hits. This is what many of the big boys teach. They teach you are not saved until you speak in tongues.
Who taught you that you have to "practice babble until it hits"? I have heard of churches teaching this, but it is a vile practice not endorsed by any Pentecostal denomination. I can assure you that if my District Superintendent (i.e. "bishop") caught someone doing this, they'd be severely reprimanded ... assuming their credentials weren't revoked outright. The doctrine that you are not saved until you speak in tongues is generally limited only to Oneness Pentecostals who reject the doctrine of The Trinity. Frankly, I'm not sure they can even be called Christian if the reject The Trinity.
Brent wrote:Most Charismatic big name teachers are Word of Faith teachers as well,
Yeah ... but they represent a very small portion of actual Pentecostals or Charismatics. I don't personally watch any of them. And, to my knowledge, none of them belong to any Pentecostal denomination.

The Assemblies of God did admit Benny Hinn for few years. We had hoped accountability to a larger group would help ground him. But the relationship didn't last. He was only with us for a few years back in the 90's.

The "big name teachers" are, frankly, irrelevant to most rank-and-file Pentecostals.
Brent wrote:Many of the things that go on in these services are spooky and satanic. All of the subliminal messages, manipulation through music, spoken word, etc. The hysteria (laughing, convulsions, falling out, staged healings, etc).
I agree. I've seen it. I've been sickened by it. But it is not what goes on in the average Assemblies of God, Church of God(Cleveland,TN), Church of God of Prophecy, or Pentecostal Holiness church on any given Sunday morning.

Brent, you're kind of making the same mistake as MacArthur, though I know you are doing so innocently. You think the "big names" represent the mainstream of the Pentecostal movement. For the most part, the mainstream of the Pentecostal movement uncompromisingly repudiates the Word of Faith movement and the practices of most of the "big name teachers".
Brent wrote: If your Charismatic service allows simultaneous tongues, more than one at a time, more than three (that is the cut-off), without interpretation,
Most Pentecostal churches don't allow this. This is not the norm in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, and the mistake MacArthur makes is pretending that it is. One mistake a few churches do make involves 1 Corinthians 14:28 "28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God."

Praying in tongues does not require an interpreter, as this passage explains. The speaker will know whether there is to be an interpretation. If there is not, he/she is to speak to him/herself and God in tongues. This I do frequently, but have never been given a message for interpretation to the church.

The mistake I do sometimes see is people praying loudly in tongues, when they should be praying quietly. This is how we do it in the church I am in now. People will sometimes pray quietly in tongues, but you'd have to be near them to hear it. The pastor and I have both done extensive teaching on this subject.
Brent wrote:It is easy to pick on Charismatics because they are wildly wresting scripture
That's an easy thing to say, but it's an accusation without any evidence to back it up. I could say the same thing about many other groups. I assure you that many Theologians of Wesleyan traditions (i.e. Methodist and Pentecostal) feel that way about Southern Baptists and Independent Baptists. And you can bet that Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics feel that way about all Protestants.

So, throwing around those kinds of accusations just isn't edifying for the body of Christ. If you feel it to be true, then you find one or two examples of such "wild wresting" and you discuss it, confronting the doctrine you believe to be false rather than attacking a group.
Brent wrote:The Holy Spirit is not a gift that comes after salvation, where you have to wait and wait and wait for it, practicing babble until it hits.
As I said, only a complete heretic would teach that you should be "practicing babble until it hits". But the Scripture is quite clear that the Baptism With The Holy Spirit is a Work of The Spirit separate and distinct from Salvation. John Wesley (a personal hero of mine) coined the term "Second Work of Grace" in reference to it, and it is still an official part of the United Methodist church's doctrine. They seldom discuss it, but it is still in their official doctrine.

The major Pentecostal denominations are simply a continuation of the revival of that belief that Wesley started.

A more complete discussion of the topic of Baptism With The Holy Spirit as separate from Salvation will be better for saved for another thread.
0 x
The Master of The Earth became a servant of no worth
And paid a kings ransom for my soul

brent
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 4302
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:06 am
x 149

Re: John MacArthur, Cessation Theology and Trainspotting for

Post by brent » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:41 am

I have HEARD the study on the radio myself. I heard the "tongues" and I heard the people trying to decipher. BOTT Radio Network aired it. I will call the station here and see if anyone has a clue who did it.

In my head, I do not consider Pentecostals, Assemblies of God or Charismatics to be the same in form and function. From my experience, the AOG denomination is centrally organized and managed. From what I have read, they manage their pastors, cutting off the people who get nutty, like they did with Benny Hinn and others. The Pentecostal churches are not as organized. The Charismatics are people who build empires. Who knows what doctrine you are going to get. You might have some Oneness Pentecostalism thrown in with the WOF doctrine.

Rod Parsley preaches waiting for the Spirit, requiring the gift of tongues for salvation, etc. I have a problem with that. It is not in the scripture. It is not something every human can do. There are people who cannot speak. This is the same nuttiness that the Church of Christ enforces with baptism. What if the church doesn't have water for some reason? That person will go to hell if he dies before baptism? Come on. At this point, the "sinner's prayer" (which does not exist in scripture either) is not that far of a stretch and you should have to say the right combination of the words before God hears you. And people think the Catholics got in the way of Jesus.
0 x

User avatar
knotodiswrld
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:42 pm
#1 Album: This Means War
Pethead since: 1984
x 1

Re: John MacArthur, Cessation Theology and Trainspotting for

Post by knotodiswrld » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:35 pm

Let me start by saying that perhaps, Brent, we are not as far apart as it seemed at first.
Brent wrote:I have HEARD the study on the radio myself. I heard the "tongues" and I heard the people trying to decipher. BOTT Radio Network aired it. I will call the station here and see if anyone has a clue who did it.
As I said, I have no doubt you sincerely believe this happened. And, without evidence to the contrary, I'm going to assume that whoever you heard it from also believed it. But I would be very curious to see if there is any documentation on it. And if there is, what does it show? Did they only send the recording to the "big names" ... the TV Televangelists? Or did they send it to Dr. George Wood, General Superintendent (i.e. "Archbishop", if you like) of the Assemblies of God, and Raymond Cullpepper, General Overseer (i.e. Archbishop) of the Church of God(Cleveland, TN).

I am almost certain that if this really happened, they did not send it to respectable theologians such as these men. If they only sent it to attention-seeking "big names" ... well ... the results of the experiment are irrelevant to me. Most of us don't really care what those guys say.
Brent wrote:In my head, I do not consider Pentecostals, Assemblies of God or Charismatics to be the same in form and function. From my experience, the AOG denomination is centrally organized and managed. From what I have read, they manage their pastors, cutting off the people who get nutty, like they did with Benny Hinn and others.
Well, thank you. We'll take that as a compliment. Yes, we do believe that accountability is very important. We try to find that delicate balance between accountability, unity, and congregational freedom. It can be tricky, and I don't think anyone would deny we've had some struggles ... made few mistakes here and there ... but we adjust and keep running the race.

But, when we say "Pentecostal", perhaps we mean something a little different than you do. We may have a question of semantics here.

When we refer to "Pentecostal Theology", we refer specifically to a Theological School of thought, Wesleyan in it's historical tradition, that believes in a Second Work of Grace, subsequent to and distinct from, Salvation. We do not believe this Second Work of Grace to be necessary for Salvation. We believe this Second Work of Grace to be the pouring out of the Power Christ promised in Acts 1:8 ... The Power to Be His Witnesses. We also believe this Second Work of Grace to be accompanied by the Initial Physical Evidence of speaking OR praying in other tongues, as was the case in Acts 10:44 -48 and Acts 19:6.

You will notice that no interpretation is mentioned on either occasion. This is what Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 14:28 ... speaking to himself and God if there is no interpretation. It is not a message for the Church, it is merely spiritual edification for the individual believer and evidence of the Second Work of Grace, which we believe is what the Bible is referring to by the phrase "Baptized With The Holy Spirit". Let me be clear, we believe that Baptism With The Holy Spirit is a completely different thing than Salvation.

No one is saying (no one in The Assemblies of God, anyway) that speaking in tongues is necessary for Salvation. It is not necessary to get you in to Heaven. But I do believe that Scripture says, and I have personally experienced, that it makes an overnight, radical difference in your ability to witness and share Christ with unbelievers.

Literally overnight, I went from being timid and unable to share my faith, to being able to speak boldly about it at any time, and having God's Words in my mouth when I do.

That is the Theological distinction to which we refer with the name "Pentecostal". I realize other people use it in different ways, but that is what I mean when I say it.

I am not, in this brief space, trying convince you that this Theological perspective is true. I am simply explaining what that perspective is so the readers will have a better understanding of what I am saying.

The term "Charismatic" originally referred to churches in mainline denominations, such as Methodists or Presbyterians, who embraced the belief in The Baptism With The Holy Spirit as I described above, but stayed in their own denominations rather than leaving and joining the AG or some other Pentecostal denomination. But, as you have noted, that word too has come to mean other things. It's still what I mean when I say, "Charismatic".
Brent wrote:Who knows what doctrine you are going to get. You might have some Oneness Pentecostalism thrown in with the WOF doctrine.
Well ... yeah. That's why non-denominational churches make me nervous. Certainly, there are some who are teaching perfectly sound doctrine. But there are others that border on being cults. And there are yet others who have crossed that border completely.

I don't know what to say about that. These guys can be completely unscriptural ... teaching a combination of WOF, Shepherding Movement, and any number of other dangerous doctrines. It's why I steer people toward AG churches, or churches that belong to denominations with sound doctrine, rather than unaffiliated churches. As you say ... you just never know what you're going to get.

And even if one of those churches has sound doctrine today, their next pastor could be a complete nut.
Brent wrote:Rod Parsley preaches waiting for the Spirit, requiring the gift of tongues for salvation, etc.
I have not read or heard Parsley teach that tongues is necessary for salvation. Then again, I really don't pay much attention to him. I can't find that on his website. This is what his website says about salvation: https://www.rodparsley.com/pages/3-what ... born-again . Just to clarify, are you sure that he wasn't referring to The Baptism With The Holy Spirit, rather than Salvation?

I'm not saying you're wrong. I just don't think I've ever picked up on that before.

Look, I'm not expert on Parsley. I don't think I've listened to him for a combined total of 15 minutes in my whole life. But I would think if he taught that, I'd have heard more about it by now.

There certainly are people who teach that, but most Pentecostals would consider this a false doctrine.
Brent wrote:At this point, the "sinner's prayer" (which does not exist in scripture either) is not that far of a stretch and you should have to say the right combination of the words before God hears you. And people think the Catholics got in the way of Jesus.
Don't forget that it also has to be said in King James English ... even if you're from Thailand. :lol:

Seriously, though, I think that most people realize that the requirement is that someone invite Christ into their Heart, to receive the transformation that comes only from The Holy Spirit (again ... "born of the Spirit" is a totally different thing that "Baptized With The Spirit). The sinner's prayer is just one way of doing that.
0 x
The Master of The Earth became a servant of no worth
And paid a kings ransom for my soul

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 54 guests