Atheist Petra Fans

A place for Petra fans to discuss other topics
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Shell » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:30 pm

Of course we shouldn't be part of methods that go against scripture, and there will be consequences for that. However, God can and does use messed up people to accomplish His purpose. If He didn't, we'd be in trouble, because the only One who is or has ever been perfect is Jesus. We're having some pretty good lessons about that in Sunday School. God used murderers, cheaters, liars, thieves, prostitutes and any number of badly-behaved individuals to accomplish His purpose, and yes, there were consequences for their disobedience, but God still did His work. God does work with people on an individual basis.

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by merlin » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:47 pm

Well I'm also an Atheist Petra fan - so I guess there's at least 2 ;p

Hartman has penned some of the best riffs I've ever heard. Honestly if I only listened to stuff I agreed with I wouldn't listen to much (or learn much either) - and I respect the bands honesty and sticking to their guns in-spite of having fundamentally different beliefs to my own.

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by savage » Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:16 pm

merlin wrote:Well I'm also an Atheist Petra fan - so I guess there's at least 2 ;p

Hartman has penned some of the best riffs I've ever heard. Honestly if I only listened to stuff I agreed with I wouldn't listen to much (or learn much either) - and I respect the bands honesty and sticking to their guns in-spite of having fundamentally different beliefs to my own.
Agreed. It's nice to know I'm not the only one.

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by fiendik » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:03 pm

merlin wrote:Well I'm also an Atheist Petra fan - so I guess there's at least 2 ;p

Hartman has penned some of the best riffs I've ever heard. Honestly if I only listened to stuff I agreed with I wouldn't listen to much (or learn much either) - and I respect the bands honesty and sticking to their guns in-spite of having fundamentally different beliefs to my own.
But you're an atheist, so you essentially believe nothing...
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Thief » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:53 pm

fiendik wrote:
merlin wrote:Well I'm also an Atheist Petra fan - so I guess there's at least 2 ;p

Hartman has penned some of the best riffs I've ever heard. Honestly if I only listened to stuff I agreed with I wouldn't listen to much (or learn much either) - and I respect the bands honesty and sticking to their guns in-spite of having fundamentally different beliefs to my own.
But you're an atheist, so you essentially believe nothing...
I don't really see the need for such a retort, but for what it's worth, atheism is not the same as nihilism. The fact that an atheist doesn't believe in a deity, doesn't mean that they don't have any beliefs.

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Mountain Man » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:21 pm

Thief wrote:...for what it's worth, atheism is not the same as nihilism.
But nihilism is the only logical conclusion of atheism. I realize that many atheists are not nihilists, but this simply means that they reject the logical implications of their own world view. I think any atheist, if he were brutally honest and introspective, could identify with King Solomon in Ecclesiates 2:

"I hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to me. All of it is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. And who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish? Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. This too is meaningless. So my heart began to despair over all my toilsome labor under the sun. For a person may labor with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then they must leave all they own to another who has not toiled for it. This too is meaningless and a great misfortune. What do people get for all the toil and anxious striving with which they labor under the sun? All their days their work is grief and pain; even at night their minds do not rest. This too is meaningless.

"A person can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment? To the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind."

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Thief » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:20 am

Mountain Man wrote:
Thief wrote:...for what it's worth, atheism is not the same as nihilism.
But nihilism is the only logical conclusion of atheism.
Says who? Again, the fact that someone doesn't believe in a deity doesn't mean that he/she renders life meaningless and without purpose.
Mountain Man wrote: I realize that many atheists are not nihilists, but this simply means that they reject the logical implications of their own world view. I think any atheist, if he were brutally honest and introspective, could identify with King Solomon in Ecclesiates 2:
And what you say here negates your previous statement. Like you said, not all atheists are nihilists. And although Solomon's verse does have nihilistic implications, that surely doesn't make him an atheist, or doesn't mean that all atheists share his view of life, at least at that moment.

But anyway, regardless of that, my point is that nothing is accomplished by fiendik's retort to merlin. It seemed more like a sharp snap at someone who doesn't share your beliefs for the purpose of nothing. I mean, do we really want to alienate those that like Petra despite not being Christians? or do we want to embrace them?

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Mountain Man » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:04 pm

Thief wrote:
Mountain Man wrote:
Thief wrote:...for what it's worth, atheism is not the same as nihilism.
But nihilism is the only logical conclusion of atheism.
Says who? Again, the fact that someone doesn't believe in a deity doesn't mean that he/she renders life meaningless and without purpose.
Mountain Man wrote: I realize that many atheists are not nihilists, but this simply means that they reject the logical implications of their own world view. I think any atheist, if he were brutally honest and introspective, could identify with King Solomon in Ecclesiates 2:
And what you say here negates your previous statement. Like you said, not all atheists are nihilists. And although Solomon's verse does have nihilistic implications, that surely doesn't make him an atheist, or doesn't mean that all atheists share his view of life, at least at that moment.

But anyway, regardless of that, my point is that nothing is accomplished by fiendik's retort to merlin. It seemed more like a sharp snap at someone who doesn't share your beliefs for the purpose of nothing. I mean, do we really want to alienate those that like Petra despite not being Christians? or do we want to embrace them?
Says who, you ask? Says logic. Any atheist who attempts to find meaning or purpose or a source of moral obligation will be ultimately frustrated because he's confronted with subjectivity at every turn. One source of "meaning" is no better or worse than any other. If atheism is true then a man who spends his life helping others will, in the end, be no better or worse off than a man who spends his life exploiting others. It's all just a chasing after the wind as King Solomon puts it.

The fact that many atheists instinctively reject nihilism is actually a strong argument in favor of theism, because such an instinct is completely at odds with an atheistic universe.

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Thief » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:11 pm

Mountain Man wrote:
Thief wrote:
Mountain Man wrote:
Thief wrote:...for what it's worth, atheism is not the same as nihilism.
But nihilism is the only logical conclusion of atheism.
Says who? Again, the fact that someone doesn't believe in a deity doesn't mean that he/she renders life meaningless and without purpose.
Mountain Man wrote: I realize that many atheists are not nihilists, but this simply means that they reject the logical implications of their own world view. I think any atheist, if he were brutally honest and introspective, could identify with King Solomon in Ecclesiates 2:
And what you say here negates your previous statement. Like you said, not all atheists are nihilists. And although Solomon's verse does have nihilistic implications, that surely doesn't make him an atheist, or doesn't mean that all atheists share his view of life, at least at that moment.

But anyway, regardless of that, my point is that nothing is accomplished by fiendik's retort to merlin. It seemed more like a sharp snap at someone who doesn't share your beliefs for the purpose of nothing. I mean, do we really want to alienate those that like Petra despite not being Christians? or do we want to embrace them?
Says who, you ask? Says logic. Any atheist who attempts to find meaning or purpose or a source of moral obligation will be ultimately frustrated because he's confronted with subjectivity at every turn. One source of "meaning" is no better or worse than any other.
I don't see it that way. Most of the most notable "moral obligations" are fairly common, even across religions and have been for centuries, predating those religions and even the Bible. Do not kill, do well to others, don't steal, help people, etc. There's little subjectivity to most of those, and you don't have to believe in any specific deity to live by those.
Mountain Man wrote: If atheism is true then a man who spends his life helping others will, in the end, be no better or worse off than a man who spends his life exploiting others. It's all just a chasing after the wind as King Solomon puts it.
Tell that to the people the first guy helped or the ones that the second guy exploited. The fact that an atheist doesn't believe in a "heavenly reward" in the end doesn't make his/her actions meaningless. As a matter of fact, I'd feel happier about a person who helps people just to do good instead of someone who does it just to get his foot inside the pearly doors.
Mountain Man wrote:The fact that many atheists instinctively reject nihilism is actually a strong argument in favor of theism, because such an instinct is completely at odds with an atheistic universe.
See above. Again, not believing in a deity doesn't mean you consider life meaningless.

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Mountain Man » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:52 pm

Thief wrote:
Mountain Man wrote:
Thief wrote:
Mountain Man wrote:
Thief wrote:...for what it's worth, atheism is not the same as nihilism.
But nihilism is the only logical conclusion of atheism.
Says who? Again, the fact that someone doesn't believe in a deity doesn't mean that he/she renders life meaningless and without purpose.
Mountain Man wrote: I realize that many atheists are not nihilists, but this simply means that they reject the logical implications of their own world view. I think any atheist, if he were brutally honest and introspective, could identify with King Solomon in Ecclesiates 2:
And what you say here negates your previous statement. Like you said, not all atheists are nihilists. And although Solomon's verse does have nihilistic implications, that surely doesn't make him an atheist, or doesn't mean that all atheists share his view of life, at least at that moment.

But anyway, regardless of that, my point is that nothing is accomplished by fiendik's retort to merlin. It seemed more like a sharp snap at someone who doesn't share your beliefs for the purpose of nothing. I mean, do we really want to alienate those that like Petra despite not being Christians? or do we want to embrace them?
Says who, you ask? Says logic. Any atheist who attempts to find meaning or purpose or a source of moral obligation will be ultimately frustrated because he's confronted with subjectivity at every turn. One source of "meaning" is no better or worse than any other.
I don't see it that way. Most of the most notable "moral obligations" are fairly common, even across religions and have been for centuries, predating those religions and even the Bible. Do not kill, do well to others, don't steal, help people, etc. There's little subjectivity to most of those, and you don't have to believe in any specific deity to live by those.
Mountain Man wrote: If atheism is true then a man who spends his life helping others will, in the end, be no better or worse off than a man who spends his life exploiting others. It's all just a chasing after the wind as King Solomon puts it.
Tell that to the people the first guy helped or the ones that the second guy exploited. The fact that an atheist doesn't believe in a "heavenly reward" in the end doesn't make his/her actions meaningless. As a matter of fact, I'd feel happier about a person who helps people just to do good instead of someone who does it just to get his foot inside the pearly doors.
Mountain Man wrote:The fact that many atheists instinctively reject nihilism is actually a strong argument in favor of theism, because such an instinct is completely at odds with an atheistic universe.
See above. Again, not believing in a deity doesn't mean you consider life meaningless.
You say that you "feel happier about a person who helps people just to do good instead of someone who does it just to get his foot inside the pearly doors." To be frank, I feel happier about that as well, but so what? The guy who enriches himself by exploiting others is pretty happy with his accumlated wealth as are the people he shares his ill-gotten gains with, so if happiness is your moral barometer then that leaves the door wide open for all sorts of hedonistic acts. And if atheism is true then we'll all be worm food in a relatively short time anyway, so what does it really matter?

The issue of moral obligation is far more complex than you realize. Even if one assumes that morality is a brute fact of nature, who or what imposes a moral duty on you and me? You might say the government or some other human authority, but the hidden premise there is that it is good in and of itself to obey human authorities. But who or what imposes that moral duty on us, that we ought to obey human authorities? You might come up with an answer, it really doesn't matter what, because the next question is always the same: Who or what imposes that moral duty on us? Eventually you'll reach the end of the chain and realize that in an atheistic universe, the concept of moral duty is incoherent and that a man killing another man is an amoral act, like a lion killing its prey. As Dr. William Lane Craig argues:

'If there is no God, then any ground for regarding the herd morality evolved by homo sapiens as objectively true seems to have been removed. After all, what is so special about human beings? They are just accidental by-products of nature which have evolved relatively recently on an infinitesimal speck of dust lost somewhere in a hostile and mindless universe and which are doomed to perish individually and collectively in a relatively short time. Some action, say, incest, may not be biologically or socially advantageous and so in the course of human evolution has become taboo; but there is on the atheistic view nothing really wrong about committing incest. If, as Kurtz states, “The moral principles that govern our behavior are rooted in habit and custom, feeling and fashion,” then the non-conformist who chooses to flout the herd morality is doing nothing more serious than acting unfashionably.'

I recommend you read his entire essay before trying to tackle this weighty topic.

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Thief » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:13 pm

Mountain Man wrote:
Thief wrote:
Mountain Man wrote:
Thief wrote:
Mountain Man wrote:
Thief wrote:...for what it's worth, atheism is not the same as nihilism.
But nihilism is the only logical conclusion of atheism.
Says who? Again, the fact that someone doesn't believe in a deity doesn't mean that he/she renders life meaningless and without purpose.
Mountain Man wrote: I realize that many atheists are not nihilists, but this simply means that they reject the logical implications of their own world view. I think any atheist, if he were brutally honest and introspective, could identify with King Solomon in Ecclesiates 2:
And what you say here negates your previous statement. Like you said, not all atheists are nihilists. And although Solomon's verse does have nihilistic implications, that surely doesn't make him an atheist, or doesn't mean that all atheists share his view of life, at least at that moment.

But anyway, regardless of that, my point is that nothing is accomplished by fiendik's retort to merlin. It seemed more like a sharp snap at someone who doesn't share your beliefs for the purpose of nothing. I mean, do we really want to alienate those that like Petra despite not being Christians? or do we want to embrace them?
Says who, you ask? Says logic. Any atheist who attempts to find meaning or purpose or a source of moral obligation will be ultimately frustrated because he's confronted with subjectivity at every turn. One source of "meaning" is no better or worse than any other.
I don't see it that way. Most of the most notable "moral obligations" are fairly common, even across religions and have been for centuries, predating those religions and even the Bible. Do not kill, do well to others, don't steal, help people, etc. There's little subjectivity to most of those, and you don't have to believe in any specific deity to live by those.
Mountain Man wrote: If atheism is true then a man who spends his life helping others will, in the end, be no better or worse off than a man who spends his life exploiting others. It's all just a chasing after the wind as King Solomon puts it.
Tell that to the people the first guy helped or the ones that the second guy exploited. The fact that an atheist doesn't believe in a "heavenly reward" in the end doesn't make his/her actions meaningless. As a matter of fact, I'd feel happier about a person who helps people just to do good instead of someone who does it just to get his foot inside the pearly doors.
Mountain Man wrote:The fact that many atheists instinctively reject nihilism is actually a strong argument in favor of theism, because such an instinct is completely at odds with an atheistic universe.
See above. Again, not believing in a deity doesn't mean you consider life meaningless.
You say that you "feel happier about a person who helps people just to do good instead of someone who does it just to get his foot inside the pearly doors." To be frank, I feel happier about that as well, but so what? The guy who enriches himself by exploiting others is pretty happy with his accumlated wealth as are the people he shares his ill-gotten gains with, so if happiness is your moral barometer then that leaves the door wide open for all sorts of hedonistic acts. And if atheism is true then we'll all be worm food in a relatively short time anyway, so what does it really matter?
Well, first of all, I never said happiness was my "moral barometer". I only said that I'm happier about people doing good deeds because they want to help people, as opposed to those that do good deeds just waiting for a reward, which you agreed with. As for your last sentence, you're resorting to the same argument again, which I've debated repeatedly already. In a nutshell, your argument is that atheists think "There is no God, no after-life, so nothing in this life matters" and I disagree. Not all atheists think that way, and frankly, that leads me to wonder how many atheists you know in real life, and if they all have that perspective on life. Again, and it's probably the third or fourth time I say it, the fact that an atheist doesn't believe in a deity, doesn't mean that he/she considers all life meaningless, so your "worm food" argument is rendered moot.
Mountain Man wrote: The issue of moral obligation is far more complex than you realize. Even if one assumes that morality is a brute fact of nature, who or what imposes a moral duty on you and me? You might say the government or some other human authority, but the hidden premise there is that it is good in and of itself to obey human authorities. But who or what imposes that moral duty on us, that we ought to obey human authorities? You might come up with an answer, it really doesn't matter what, because the next question is always the same: Who or what imposes that moral duty on us? Eventually you'll reach the end of the chain and realize that in an atheistic universe, the concept of moral duty is incoherent and that a man killing another man is an amoral act, like a lion killing its prey.
I don't think "morality" comes from government or authorities. I think that, deep down, human nature looks for its own well-being thus shaping our forms of government and authority, and yes, maybe even religion. Of course, we can come up with different examples of how that is enforced or expressed, some we might agree, others we might not, but that's not the point. The point is that I do believe there can be a concept of moral duty, regardless of your "beliefs".
Mountain Man wrote: As Dr. William Lane Craig argues:

'If there is no God, then any ground for regarding the herd morality evolved by homo sapiens as objectively true seems to have been removed. After all, what is so special about human beings? They are just accidental by-products of nature which have evolved relatively recently on an infinitesimal speck of dust lost somewhere in a hostile and mindless universe and which are doomed to perish individually and collectively in a relatively short time. Some action, say, incest, may not be biologically or socially advantageous and so in the course of human evolution has become taboo; but there is on the atheistic view nothing really wrong about committing incest. If, as Kurtz states, “The moral principles that govern our behavior are rooted in habit and custom, feeling and fashion,” then the non-conformist who chooses to flout the herd morality is doing nothing more serious than acting unfashionably.'

I recommend you read his entire essay before trying to tackle this weighty topic.
Lane brings up the same arguments you've brought up. Since atheists don't believe in God, they don't care about anything, and every action is fair game for them. They are not bound by any moral structure, which is what I've disagreed several times already.


And finally, all this discussion, albeit interesting, has nothing to do with the fact that nothing good is achieved in this forum and in the grander scheme of Christian thinking by throwing a sharp snap at an atheist person for no reason whatsoever. Quite the opposite, which actually baffles me coming from supposedly Christian people.

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Mountain Man » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:16 pm

Thief wrote:In a nutshell, your argument is that atheists think "There is no God, no after-life, so nothing in this life matters" and I disagree.
No, that's not my argument at all. My argument is that nihilism is the only conclusion logically consistent within an atheistic worldview (and I've explained why in previous posts). That is to say that if all atheists were logically consistent then all atheists would be nihilists; however, I readily concede that many (most?) atheists are not nihilists which says to me that many atheists are not logically consistent.

Let's come at this from a different direction. Answer the following: If atheism is true then what objective basis do atheists have to not be nihilists?

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by fiendik » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:17 pm

Thief wrote: And finally, all this discussion, albeit interesting, has nothing to do with the fact that nothing good is achieved in this forum and in the grander scheme of Christian thinking by throwing a sharp snap at an atheist person for no reason whatsoever. Quite the opposite, which actually baffles me coming from supposedly Christian people.
I actually had a reason for what I said; I was trying to provoke some thought on what the implications of being an atheist are.

As to the discussion; this Pethead said he had beliefs, so I assume he places some meaningful purpose in life. Now, I'll first point out that the Darwinian view cannot have any life purpose because of the way it works; we are not designed, we do not have souls, and there is no master plan, it's just whatever happens happens. There cannot be good and evil because there is no single person to define these. And that is just the point; if there is no deity, then there can be no plan and no morals; if we evolved, then the only right and wrong can be those "to the improvement of the species" (otherwise "Good for the sake of good"), which we don't have any reason to follow, because there can't be any repercussions if we don't. That is, there is no conceivable reason for life without a soul. Now, one can say that we should not live only for ourselves, but this is only true if there is a deity to live for. Living for a collection of random molecules will never be worth it.

So by "atheist" you could mean that you're a Nihilist, a Humanist, or simply a person who accepts some god other than the True One. Darwinians are ultimately Nihilists, and so far all the atheists I have met have embraced this view, at least initially. Sometimes they apply some other morality (conscience) on humans, but really this is inconsistent. To be a true atheist is to believe that there is no god at all; God is the ultimate reason in the universe. Now you can say that you are a god, but that's just silly. Humans make very poor gods. No-one makes an even worse one, so if you are a consistent atheist, then you are in essence saying that you believe that life is random. Randomness cannot have meaning.

So, to perhaps word my original thoughts in a more profitable way, I ask of the atheists a question: Why do you do what you do? What is the reason for your actions? What is your objective?

P.S. Don't take me as unfriendly; I'm bound to sound a bit harsh because I believe that the wrong ideas can get you into hell forever.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Mountain Man » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:21 am

fiendik wrote:P.S. Don't take me as unfriendly; I'm bound to sound a bit harsh because I believe that the wrong ideas can get you into hell forever.
I know exactly where you're coming from, and I, too, have been called out at times for my bluntness, but my response is to point to the New Testament where Jesus pulled no punches when confronting worldly philosophy. In fact, he often got downright nasty with the pharisees during public debates, calling them snakes and tombs full of dead men's bones (these would have been very sharp insults back then).

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Shell » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:21 am

Given a choice, I would rather deal with someone who is somewhat blunt than I would a backstabber. At least you know where they are coming from and that they are being honest with you. There is a place for that, especially with something as vital as salvation. There's a balancing point too. Some people do need to be confronted with the truth in a blunt way, but some people are willing to be reasoned with and asking questions and giving them something to think about is the best approach.

In the end, what happens after you've stated your case is up to the person, not you. You can speak the truth; you can't make someone listen or see reason.

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