Atheist Petra Fans

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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Carolina Petra Fan » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:43 am

Thanks for the feedback everybody. Hope you had a great Christmas, and have a Happy New Year!
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by knotodiswrld » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:54 am

Mountain Man wrote:You were convinced once, so ask yourself what the real reason was that you fell away. Was it because Christianity suddenly stopped being true, or was it because you put your faith in something other than God?
But was Savage "convinced once"? You see ... I'm not sure he was. He states that he grew up as the son of a Pentecostal Pastor. Did he ever really decide for himself whether or not he believed? Was he ever truly convinced, or was he just going along with the environment in which he was raised?

That can be the worst situation of all ... living the church culture just because you are raised in it without ever actually coming to faith yourself. It terrifies me to think that my own kids might be doing that. It makes me almost envy those who come to Christ later in life so they know they are not doing this.

Savage, I wonder if you are truly an "atheist", or if you just realized one day that you had never really had the chance to decide for yourself if you believed or not. Are you really an atheist, or are you just determined to not be led around by the nose (and rightly so)?

I was fortunate to be Methodist in the Jimmy Swaggart era, so when he got caught with his pants down, we just "tsk tsk"ed and went on with our walk of faith. As another kid in my youth group said, "The problem is that all these people were following Jimmy Swaggart and not Jesus". And it was true.

Savage, my friend, I know that you have had some experiences which have soured you terribly on Christianity, and on God in general. I understand. I have had similar experiences. I was fortunate enough to have already forged my own faith by that point and my own walk with God, and to be considerably older than you seem to have been.

Still, I've seen the tendency in some churches to follow some particular big-name teacher as if he were God's Official Spokesman (G.O.S.). As a Pentecostal Minister myself now, I do my best to teach those to whom I minister to have their own faith, and to not follow any human as if he were G.O.S.
Savage wrote:Over the years I did the whole church, Bible Collage then Pastor thing. For me it didn't work.
Did you actually pastor a church for a while? Or were you involved in ministry? If so, there's a book I am certain you would enjoy reading. I'm not saying it will "renew your faith", or convert you back to Christianity, or convince you that God exists, or anything like that. But if you have been through what I think you have been through -- something similar to what I have been through -- I think reading it will be therapeutic. It's just a fictional (or semi-fictional) story, but it's one which will speak to what I think you've been through.

The book is called "The Visitation". It was written by Frank Peretti. If you read his "Present Darkness" series ... don't worry!! His writing as matured greatly since then. "The Visitation" is much better written. What's more, I think it speaks to some of things through which you and I have both gone.

Yes, there's the whole "Supernatural Thriller" element to the story, but it's almost a sub-plot to the main plot of a former Pentecostal Pastor dealing with the state of his faith. I didn't realize until after I read the book that Peretti himself has been through the same sort of thing. So it speaks to some of the experiences that are unique to Pentecostal ministry.

In fact, my one and only criticism of the book is that most people simply aren't going to "get it" - at least not as well as you and I. Most people will read it and say, "It's not really like that, is it?" (Yes, people. It is. Very much so.) While you and I will read it and say, "Yeah ... been there, done that!"

Seriously ... get a copy of the book and read it. I think you'll get some catharsis from it.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Mountain Man » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:35 pm

knotodiswrld wrote:But was Savage "convinced once"?
I'm sure he was to some extent. I understand what you're saying about the dangers of growing up in church culture, but I'm almost certain there was a time in his life when he would have said with conviction that he was a Christian with a reasonable understanding of what that meant.

People fall away for any number of reasons, but it is never because Christianity stopped being true. I've read countless "deconversion" stories over the years, and every single one, without exception, is about an emotional crisis that caused someone to start doubting and then seek validation for that doubt (which is easy to find if you're looking for it; there are any number of non-believers who will happily tell you exactly what you want to hear). It's never a reasoned intellectual journey from Christian to atheist, or at the very least I have never read such an account. That's why I say that perhaps he needs to explore the question with a fresh perspective, unencumbered by a church culture.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by savage » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:41 am

Yes I was convinced once no doubt. I worked as an assistant pastor while training to be ordained. I left before that happened. I did read the Visitation when it first came out. I was in Bible College at the time. Christ For The Nations to be exact. It was a good book. No, although I struggled with parts of my faith for a while I would have to say that my faith crumbled after reading, "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. However, my belief that Petra is the greatest rock band of all time withstood the storm.

I wouldn't recommend losing your faith. It's not an easy transition.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by p-freak » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:26 am

I have also read The God Delusion, but I found it fundamentally flawed. The problem with Dawkins is that he ignores the whole meta-narrative. He doesn't get the picture straight. Science is not designed to deal with metaphysics. His problems is that he lets science say something about religion, but by definition, science cannot say anything about religion and metaphysics. Science can describe religious practices and identify what/how people believe, but cannot draw any conclusion about the truth of religion/faith/belief. That's where Dawkins goes wrong and because of this his whole book got skewed. Dawkins is not a rational scientist but a man of atheistic faith. What he's doing is scientifically irresponsible.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Mountain Man » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:03 pm

savage wrote:I would have to say that my faith crumbled after reading, "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.
Wow, seriously? You need to read better books, because while Dawkins may be a renowned biologist, he's a terrible philosopher and an even worse theologian. One of his key arguments against God is to ask "Who designed the designer?", a question of such staggering ignorance that a freshman philosophy student would be kicked out of the program if he presented it as a serious challenge to theism (it's akin to asking why an omnipotent God can't create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it). The short answer is that you don't need to be able to explain an explanation for it to be the best explanation. For example, if you found a complex machine in the woods, the best explanation is that it was the product of an intelligent designer even if you can't explain who built it or why. As a scientist, Dawkin's should know this since it's one of the fundamental principles of his field.

You might be interested in the following article by William Lane Craig which addresses Dawkin's attempts to refute the strongest philosophical arguments for God's existence:

The New Atheism and Five Arguments For God
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by savage » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:47 pm

Dawkins was just the beginning but it certainly was the game changer for me. More biology than anything else actually. I ended up reading all of those guys. Hitchens, Harris, I'm sure you know the list.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by brent » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:29 am

Science is man's best guess (educated or not) at a particular date and time. We can created a long, long list of scientific "facts" now known to be untrue and down right absurd. Physicians do not practice medicine or procedures like they did a decade ago. Our understanding and logic evolves. Science is 1414 was REALLY crude compared to science in 2014. Science in 2014 will be REALLY crude compared to science in 2614. So, I would not base a belief or faith on what man's best guess is right now, because scientists can and do evolve, even contradicting themselves at times. Do you want to place your faith in something without having all of the answers or even knowing the correct questions to ask? Just last night I was watching a show about some scientist who made incorrect assumptions. He did an experiment with dirty underwear, straw and a bucket. He put it all in a corner, saw a mouse 21 day later, and then said, "Mice come from dirty underwear, straw and a bucket in 21 days." No, the mouse came into the house and made a home on the 21st day. THIS was science. Well, someone is going to look back 600 years from now and laugh at our science.

No matter what, the facts are, you cannot prove God exists with science. You cannot prove God doesn't exist with science.

I do not have it in front of me, but there was a survey released in a book, written by a couple of Christian doctors. The survey reveals that a large percentage of brain surgeons, electrical engineers, etc may not believe in Jesus Christ of YAWEH, but they most certainly believe that their professions have proven to them that there must be an intelligent designer(s). Nothing in the universe has demonstrated order comes from disorder and most certainly not by itself.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Carolina Petra Fan » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:33 am

I highly recommend everyone to see the new "God's Not Dead" movie, especially if you are an athiest. I also highly recommend it to anyone in high school or college.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by executioner » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:06 pm

brent wrote:Science is man's best guess (educated or not) at a particular date and time. We can created a long, long list of scientific "facts" now known to be untrue and down right absurd. Physicians do not practice medicine or procedures like they did a decade ago. Our understanding and logic evolves. Science is 1414 was REALLY crude compared to science in 2014. Science in 2014 will be REALLY crude compared to science in 2614. So, I would not base a belief or faith on what man's best guess is right now, because scientists can and do evolve, even contradicting themselves at times. Do you want to place your faith in something without having all of the answers or even knowing the correct questions to ask? Just last night I was watching a show about some scientist who made incorrect assumptions. He did an experiment with dirty underwear, straw and a bucket. He put it all in a corner, saw a mouse 21 day later, and then said, "Mice come from dirty underwear, straw and a bucket in 21 days." No, the mouse came into the house and made a home on the 21st day. THIS was science. Well, someone is going to look back 600 years from now and laugh at our science.

No matter what, the facts are, you cannot prove God exists with science. You cannot prove God doesn't exist with science.

I do not have it in front of me, but there was a survey released in a book, written by a couple of Christian doctors. The survey reveals that a large percentage of brain surgeons, electrical engineers, etc may not believe in Jesus Christ of YAWEH, but they most certainly believe that their professions have proven to them that there must be an intelligent designer(s). Nothing in the universe has demonstrated order comes from disorder and most certainly not by itself.

Atheists draw their conclusions based on science and thought, not by the heart. The Bible consistently talks about the heart of man, but very rarely talks about the brain or thinking process of man. Christianity is based completely on the heart.
Savage seek God not in science or thought but from the heart perspective and you will believe in God. This why nonbelievers have an undesirable outlook on God because they are trying to comes to terms on Him on their own accord.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Shell » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:27 pm

I think part of it too not defining or basing your belief in God by the nonsense that can go on in churches. Churches are made up of messed up people, and God is bigger than all that. You're gonna be in trouble if you focus on the people. I can understand how someone might get the wrong idea about Christianity when they see the garbage that can (and does) go on.

Whatever the case, thank you for sharing your thoughts about Petra and I am glad their music is important to you.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by brent » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:31 pm

The fact Jesus walked the earth and both secular, religious and Jesus following people documented the life of Christ and activities surrounding him, including changes in sunlight mid day, and the transfiguration should be enough. If this stuff happened today, there would be more than enough evidence and witnesses to hold up in a court of law.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Mountain Man » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:01 pm

savage wrote:Dawkins was just the beginning but it certainly was the game changer for me. More biology than anything else actually. I ended up reading all of those guys. Hitchens, Harris, I'm sure you know the list.
No offense, but it looks like you started with bad scholarship and continued with even worse scholarship. None of those guys are recognized experts in any of the relevant fields that touch Christianity (history, philosophy, sociology, theology, textual criticism, etc.), so they're basically speaking as laymen when it comes to religion, and fairly ignorant ones at that. Did you happen to read the article I mentioned earlier by William Lane Craig? Now Craig actually is a recognized authority in the field of philosophy, and he poked holes in Dawkin's arguments so big you could drive a train through them.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by gman » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:08 pm

I don't know about today, but I remember when I was in school, world history textbooks had a short section on Jesus. They were not validating the biblical presentation of him, but they were at least acknowledging that there was an historical person named Jesus that was the same person that is written about in scripture. That was good enough for me. I've never done any serious research on the historical Jesus, but I would bet that there is plenty of evidence.
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Re: Atheist Petra Fans

Post by Mountain Man » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:22 pm

executioner wrote:Atheists draw their conclusions based on science and thought, not by the heart. The Bible consistently talks about the heart of man, but very rarely talks about the brain or thinking process of man. Christianity is based completely on the heart.
Savage seek God not in science or thought but from the heart perspective and you will believe in God. This why nonbelievers have an undesirable outlook on God because they are trying to comes to terms on Him on their own accord.
Sorry, but this sounds like that Way of Disaster nonsense (also known as Way of the Master). Christianity is an intellectually stimulating world view, and God never once asks us to put our brains in park and operate on vague feelings from the "heart". That's no better than the Mormons with their burning of the bosom theology. God told the prophet Isaiah, "Let us reason together." Paul presents a well-reasoned and perfectly logical argument when addressing the apparent conflict between our sin nature and our redeemed nature in Romans 7. James 2 engages in a similar argument when discussing faith and works. Peter's quintessential evangelistic message to the crowd in Acts 2 is an argument based on facts and evidence. Notice that he doesn't ask the crowd to respond based on their feelings but on their knowledge: "Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. [...] God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it."

And there are dozens of other examples. Not once will the Bible ever tell you, "Don't think, just feel." That's a worldly philosophy that will lead you astray every single time.
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