Re: Atheist Petra Fans
Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:43 am
Thanks for the feedback everybody. Hope you had a great Christmas, and have a Happy New Year!
But was Savage "convinced once"? You see ... I'm not sure he was. He states that he grew up as the son of a Pentecostal Pastor. Did he ever really decide for himself whether or not he believed? Was he ever truly convinced, or was he just going along with the environment in which he was raised?Mountain Man wrote:You were convinced once, so ask yourself what the real reason was that you fell away. Was it because Christianity suddenly stopped being true, or was it because you put your faith in something other than God?
Did you actually pastor a church for a while? Or were you involved in ministry? If so, there's a book I am certain you would enjoy reading. I'm not saying it will "renew your faith", or convert you back to Christianity, or convince you that God exists, or anything like that. But if you have been through what I think you have been through -- something similar to what I have been through -- I think reading it will be therapeutic. It's just a fictional (or semi-fictional) story, but it's one which will speak to what I think you've been through.Savage wrote:Over the years I did the whole church, Bible Collage then Pastor thing. For me it didn't work.
I'm sure he was to some extent. I understand what you're saying about the dangers of growing up in church culture, but I'm almost certain there was a time in his life when he would have said with conviction that he was a Christian with a reasonable understanding of what that meant.knotodiswrld wrote:But was Savage "convinced once"?
Wow, seriously? You need to read better books, because while Dawkins may be a renowned biologist, he's a terrible philosopher and an even worse theologian. One of his key arguments against God is to ask "Who designed the designer?", a question of such staggering ignorance that a freshman philosophy student would be kicked out of the program if he presented it as a serious challenge to theism (it's akin to asking why an omnipotent God can't create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it). The short answer is that you don't need to be able to explain an explanation for it to be the best explanation. For example, if you found a complex machine in the woods, the best explanation is that it was the product of an intelligent designer even if you can't explain who built it or why. As a scientist, Dawkin's should know this since it's one of the fundamental principles of his field.savage wrote:I would have to say that my faith crumbled after reading, "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.
brent wrote:Science is man's best guess (educated or not) at a particular date and time. We can created a long, long list of scientific "facts" now known to be untrue and down right absurd. Physicians do not practice medicine or procedures like they did a decade ago. Our understanding and logic evolves. Science is 1414 was REALLY crude compared to science in 2014. Science in 2014 will be REALLY crude compared to science in 2614. So, I would not base a belief or faith on what man's best guess is right now, because scientists can and do evolve, even contradicting themselves at times. Do you want to place your faith in something without having all of the answers or even knowing the correct questions to ask? Just last night I was watching a show about some scientist who made incorrect assumptions. He did an experiment with dirty underwear, straw and a bucket. He put it all in a corner, saw a mouse 21 day later, and then said, "Mice come from dirty underwear, straw and a bucket in 21 days." No, the mouse came into the house and made a home on the 21st day. THIS was science. Well, someone is going to look back 600 years from now and laugh at our science.
No matter what, the facts are, you cannot prove God exists with science. You cannot prove God doesn't exist with science.
I do not have it in front of me, but there was a survey released in a book, written by a couple of Christian doctors. The survey reveals that a large percentage of brain surgeons, electrical engineers, etc may not believe in Jesus Christ of YAWEH, but they most certainly believe that their professions have proven to them that there must be an intelligent designer(s). Nothing in the universe has demonstrated order comes from disorder and most certainly not by itself.
No offense, but it looks like you started with bad scholarship and continued with even worse scholarship. None of those guys are recognized experts in any of the relevant fields that touch Christianity (history, philosophy, sociology, theology, textual criticism, etc.), so they're basically speaking as laymen when it comes to religion, and fairly ignorant ones at that. Did you happen to read the article I mentioned earlier by William Lane Craig? Now Craig actually is a recognized authority in the field of philosophy, and he poked holes in Dawkin's arguments so big you could drive a train through them.savage wrote:Dawkins was just the beginning but it certainly was the game changer for me. More biology than anything else actually. I ended up reading all of those guys. Hitchens, Harris, I'm sure you know the list.
Sorry, but this sounds like that Way of Disaster nonsense (also known as Way of the Master). Christianity is an intellectually stimulating world view, and God never once asks us to put our brains in park and operate on vague feelings from the "heart". That's no better than the Mormons with their burning of the bosom theology. God told the prophet Isaiah, "Let us reason together." Paul presents a well-reasoned and perfectly logical argument when addressing the apparent conflict between our sin nature and our redeemed nature in Romans 7. James 2 engages in a similar argument when discussing faith and works. Peter's quintessential evangelistic message to the crowd in Acts 2 is an argument based on facts and evidence. Notice that he doesn't ask the crowd to respond based on their feelings but on their knowledge: "Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. [...] God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it."executioner wrote:Atheists draw their conclusions based on science and thought, not by the heart. The Bible consistently talks about the heart of man, but very rarely talks about the brain or thinking process of man. Christianity is based completely on the heart.
Savage seek God not in science or thought but from the heart perspective and you will believe in God. This why nonbelievers have an undesirable outlook on God because they are trying to comes to terms on Him on their own accord.