song structure

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executioner
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song structure

Post by executioner » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:43 am

Who invented or first started using the 2 verse/2 chorus, 1 bridge(with guitar solo at times) then finishing up repeating the chorus sometimes several times? I've done some research and I'm seeing this structure did not exist in the 30's-50's and also the big known bands in the 60's like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Cream etc did not use this structure a lot if at all. I've noticed that Petra(Bob in particular) uses this style a lot. BTW after looking at the Beatles songs on paper I'm wondering why this band become so popular; their song structures had very little structure and at times seem to be very confusing, plus their lyrics seem to never really make any sense. I don't know a lot about this so looking for some like Brent or Boray to give some insight. Thanks
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Re: song structure

Post by Jonathan » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:29 am

executioner wrote:BTW after looking at the Beatles songs on paper I'm wondering why this band become so popular; their song structures had very little structure and at times seem to be very confusing, plus their lyrics seem to never really make any sense.


Here's why: http://www.henrymakow.com/beatles_were_ ... ntrol.html
executioner wrote:I don't know a lot about this so looking for some like Brent or Boray to give some insight. Thanks
Oh. Redacted.
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Re: song structure

Post by bakersfieldpethead » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:20 pm

I didn't see the structure of 2 verses, 2 choruses and bridge with a guitar solo get used widely until the 80s and more so in the Christian market instead of the secular market. I'm not sure who first wrote a song with that type of structure but it really took off in the CCM field. The reason is because that Bridge was used in many songs to establish the point or reason for the song or the arrival of the conclusion to the message of the song, some songs would include an extra chorus to tag after the Bridge to establish a before and after message.
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Re: song structure

Post by zman7720000 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:15 pm

bakersfieldpethead wrote:I didn't see the structure of 2 verses, 2 choruses and bridge with a guitar solo get used widely until the 80s and more so in the Christian market instead of the secular market. I'm not sure who first wrote a song with that type of structure but it really took off in the CCM field. The reason is because that Bridge was used in many songs to establish the point or reason for the song or the arrival of the conclusion to the message of the song, some songs would include an extra chorus to tag after the Bridge to establish a before and after message.
many in academia consider the Beatles to be one of the first boy bands however this is a highly contested issue.
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Re: song structure

Post by Dan » Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:24 am

The first boy band:
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Re: song structure

Post by executioner » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:06 am

bakersfieldpethead wrote:I didn't see the structure of 2 verses, 2 choruses and bridge with a guitar solo get used widely until the 80s and more so in the Christian market instead of the secular market. I'm not sure who first wrote a song with that type of structure but it really took off in the CCM field. The reason is because that Bridge was used in many songs to establish the point or reason for the song or the arrival of the conclusion to the message of the song, some songs would include an extra chorus to tag after the Bridge to establish a before and after message.
Then what you are saying is that artists like Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, AC/DC(post 1982), Journey, and a host of other secular artists have looked to CCM to get their song structure? All these artists use this song structure the majority of the time now and in the past. I'm sure there are others, but none that I listen too.
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Re: song structure

Post by fiendik » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:28 pm

When I write songs, I find this an easy structure to use. It's often hard to write more than two verses that have the same tune (for me, anyway), and sometimes the bridge is a third verse with different music. I have no idea who first used it or why, but it strikes me as the most natural structure to use as long as you have a repeating chorus.
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Re: song structure

Post by brent » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:18 am

If you hadn't heard it before the 80s, you had a very limited musical palette or were just too young to listen back in history. This goes back to hyms, which means it goes back to classical music where the hymns and "bar songs" originated. Bar does not mean "tavern". Bar was a format. Sheet music lends witness to this.

Radio demanded this type of format. It needed a hook and a pay off, repeated in a song to retain attention. It was determined the attention span was about 2:30 to 3:30 minutes and that is why songs were structured like that for radio. In early radio, playlists were formatted in groups of three to retain the listener. If you go back to Doo Wop music in the 50s, you can hear this for sure. The 60s Hit/Gold songs were formatted like this. Those tunes are accessible.

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Re: song structure

Post by executioner » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:03 pm

brent wrote:If you hadn't heard it before the 80s, you had a very limited musical palette or were just too young to listen back in history. This goes back to hyms, which means it goes back to classical music where the hymns and "bar songs" originated. Bar does not mean "tavern". Bar was a format. Sheet music lends witness to this.

Radio demanded this type of format. It needed a hook and a pay off, repeated in a song to retain attention. It was determined the attention span was about 2:30 to 3:30 minutes and that is why songs were structured like that for radio. In early radio, playlists were formatted in groups of three to retain the listener. If you go back to Doo Wop music in the 50s, you can hear this for sure. The 60s Hit/Gold songs were formatted like this. Those tunes are accessible.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I mean a song structure that follows a strict line:

verse1
chorus
verse2
chorus
bridge
chorus 2x

After researching several hymn books out there I find very little of this structure in any of them; most have no chorus and just have verses sometimes as many as 6+. I find nothing at all before the 50's popular radio music in this structure and find even less in the 60's with it seeming to make a little wave in the 70's, but in the 80's I would say about 85% of the popular music had this specific structure. It's funny how the Beatles are so popular because most of their songs are very basic in chord retention and most start off the song by singing the chorus.
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Re: song structure

Post by brent » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:03 pm

All of the hymn books I have ever seen, and some I own, going back to the early 1900s (containing songs written in the 1800s and earlier) have verse, chorus, verse, chorus, etc, etc. You might have found a denominational thing. Even the original Stamps Baxter Music book from the school and Brumley's Radio Favorites (1938), which I own (thanks Mom) has the same structure.

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Re: song structure

Post by fiendik » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:36 pm

Most songs have the verses alternating with the chorus, it's primarily a question of the two verses and the bridge. "Test of Time" is an example of a Petra song which does not have the structure being discussed.

With this in mind, most hymns do not follow this structure, as most of them have more than 2 verses, and almost all lack the bridge. Of course, the idea of what exactly a "hymn" is is variable; I personally know mostly really old ones, from the 19th century (1800s) or older. None of them have bridges. So they don't have this exact song structure.
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Re: song structure

Post by executioner » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:54 pm

fiendik wrote:Most songs have the verses alternating with the chorus, it's primarily a question of the two verses and the bridge. "Test of Time" is an example of a Petra song which does not have the structure being discussed.

With this in mind, most hymns do not follow this structure, as most of them have more than 2 verses, and almost all lack the bridge. Of course, the idea of what exactly a "hymn" is is variable; I personally know mostly really old ones, from the 19th century (1800s) or older. None of them have bridges. So they don't have this exact song structure.

Thank you!! You get it, but no one else seems to; I've been talking about this specific structure of verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus(with a repeat). I'm not talking about any other type of structure including one that has more/less verses or choruses. The main reason for asking is because Bob uses this about 90% of the time in his writing and I was wondering if he was key in making this popular or not. I've noticed Bob was using it even some on Petra(1974) and after that used it almost all the time.
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Re: song structure

Post by brent » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:56 pm

Hymns have had bridges (joins), they just weren't the same exact thing. The bridges were short transitions, leading into the next verse without pause. Holy, holy, Holy, LGA is an example. Again, I think it depends on the denomination, the song books they used and the arrangements. They are there, just not what you are used to thinking of in modern terms.

Bob did not invent what you are talking about. Again, it was done long ago. It is a popular formula.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_struc ... r_music%29

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