The Petra Zone

Driscoll is done.

What is going on now? I assume you are talking about Phil.

No. Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church. He gone!

Phil had his tax evasion, record label = church and two mansions = a parsonage Federal prison sentence controversy. He even took his case to the Supreme Court six years later. He must have been MAD. Silly, he is not a minister of a church, installed and overseen by elders or deacons. He is a performing artist that happens to play Christian music. There is nothing wrong with him making some great money for providing great services. More power to him. But, if you are not a minister/pastor/priest, actively holding that office in a church, you do not get the same accommodations afforded by the IRS.

To quote a little known artist's song, "I think I'll start my own denomination, please make your checks out to me..."

brent wrote:No. Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church. He gone!

Phil had his tax evasion, record label = church and two mansions = a parsonage Federal prison sentence controversy. He even took his case to the Supreme Court six years later. He must have been MAD. Silly, he is not a minister of a church, installed and overseen by elders or deacons. He is a performing artist that happens to play Christian music. There is nothing wrong with him making some great money for providing great services. More power to him. But, if you are not a minister/pastor/priest, actively holding that office in a church, you do not get the same accommodations afforded by the IRS.

To quote a little known artist's song, "I think I'll start my own denomination, please make your checks out to me..."

Yep!

Autocratic "pastors" everywhere shudder collectively.

I watched some videos of Driscoll preaching and was surprised to learn that he is not a cessasionist. I guess reformers and charismastic gifts are not mutually exclusive.

I would sure like to see someone raise a dead person. It hasn't happened on command and been documented in a very, VERY long time. If that person has the gift, they suck at using it. They should be going through the hospital on TBN, "Put your dead people in front of the TV and I will raise them from the dead." That is what Benny Hinn told Paul Crouch they would do. He said Jesus was going to use TBN to raise the dead too.

There are lots of gifts nobody has been able to do without manipulating the situation to get a similar result. The Apostles were called for a specific purpose, for a specific time, and specific people. We have the written Word of God and the Holy Spirit within us. Jesus said those signs were for fools. I don't doubt miracles happen. They do. But, what makes a miracle a miracle is the fact it is a super natural, unexplainable event that happens rarely. If people had miracles occurring everyday in their lives, there would be nothing miraculous about the events.

I see these nuts selling their spray water and selling their Holy Ghost dietary supplements, each prayed over by the doosh (had to spell it that way) in the shiny suit with his plastic wife. Whatever. That is not God. Jesus didn't sell it. Neither should we. If the crap is real, give it freely, liberally. If God is a big boy, he will cover your expenses somehow.

Yeah I know some people that are really into this guy, I always found him to be crude and aggressive. No surprise it caught up with him.

brent wrote:I would sure like to see someone raise a dead person. It hasn't happened on command and been documented in a very, VERY long time. If that person has the gift, they suck at using it. They should be going through the hospital on TBN, "Put your dead people in front of the TV and I will raise them from the dead." That is what Benny Hinn told Paul Crouch they would do. He said Jesus was going to use TBN to raise the dead too.

I think you misunderstand how "gifts of The Spirit" work.

The Holy Spirit, The Third Person of The Triune Godhead, does NOT perform on COMMAND. He is NOT a PARLOR TRICK one can pull out to impress skeptics. He is The Spirit of The LORD (I use all caps as is used in OT translation to denote use of the Tetragrammaton ). And as Such, He is, like The Son, One With The Sovereign Father.

I have known those with true gifts of healing. Such people do not get to choose who gets healed and who does not. It is a God's Sovereign Choice. If I could explain why God chooses to heal this person and not that person, every Seminary on the planet that acknowledges healing would grant me an honorary MDiv.

I myself have been miraculously and instantaneously healed of illness or injury on three separate occasions. And yet, when I had gallstones, I had to get surgery the same as any atheist. Why? Well, I have some theories on the greater spiritual good served by all that, but nothing I would teach dogmatically.

I have received prophecies that came true. Yet, I cannot tell you what tomorrow will bring. My wife had the gift of prophecy. In the late 90's she told me that Alabama (where we lived at the time, and which NEVER gets earthquakes) would soon be hit with an earthquake. This prophecy came true very soon thereafter.

But don't bother asking her what the next set of winning lottery numbers will be. God has not, to date, seen fit to reveal that information to her.

NO ONE ever raised the dead "on command". Even the Apostles did only those miracles which The Holy Spirit ordained that they should do. They did not get to choose.

That is why Paul, worker of mighty miracles though he was, besought The Lord three times about his "thorn in the flesh", but was told, "My grace is sufficient". In other words, God just plain refused to work the miracle for which Paul sought. Not even the Apostles performed miracles on command of HUMANS. They performed them, as we do today, as The Holy Spirit moved them.

Now, I don't keep up with Hinn or TBN enough to comment on them. I really could not care less what they do. But you seem to be taking the actions of a few ... let's just say ... fringe ... elements and using it to reject a tremendous and beautiful aspect of God's Grace toward us.

The argument that those with the gift of healing should go empty out hospitals simply isn't Scripturally sound. God is the one who chooses who will be healed, not we ourselves.

Brent wrote:The Apostles were called for a specific purpose, for a specific time, and specific people.

Yes, and that time is now, and those people are us. Please provide scriptural proof that the gifts have ceased. I don't believe you can.

Brent wrote:Jesus said those signs were for fools.

Reference? And even if you have such a reference ... there are still plenty of fools who need to be enlightened.

Brent wrote:I see these nuts selling their spray water and selling their Holy Ghost dietary supplements, each prayed over by the doosh (had to spell it that way) in the shiny suit with his plastic wife. Whatever. That is not God.

Again, you're looking at the behavior of the lunatic fringe ... the behavior of people who clearly are not grounded in Scripture (whether they are deliberate frauds or are merely themselves deceived I leave to God to judge) ... and take it as proof that The Gifts of the Spirit are not in operation today. That is neither logically nor scripturally sound.

Look, I have witnessed phony spiritual gifts. It makes me sick to my stomach. But where is the logic in therefore rejecting the genuine Work of The Spirit?

Yes, the world is full of snake-oil salesmen selling horribly twisted theology. God will be their judge. But don't fall for satan's trap!! Don't let satan deceive YOU as well. Don't let satan whisper to you, "Well, since that person claims to have spiritual gifts, and since that person is obviously a fraud, all spiritual gifts must be fraudulent". Don't let him lead you down that path.

I don't doubt you've witnessed phony, fraudulent miracles. But all that means is that you've been around bad people. All it proves is that there are bad people out there. But we already knew there were bad people out there. Scripture tells us that repeatedly.

Proving there are bad people is not the same as proving that The Gifts of The Spirit are not in true operation today.

And as for Phil, let's not assume he was deliberately evading taxes. I can tell you that even your average local pastor struggles with the tax code as it relates to his position. It's terribly confusing ... what does he owe taxes on and what doesn't he? And what constitutes a "pastor" and what constitutes a "church employee"? It's a whole field of study, and I've known GOOD pastors get in tax trouble simply because they didn't understand the tax code. And few can afford to have their taxes done professionally. And many professionals are not familiar with the code as it pertains to clergy.

That being said, I am COMPLETELY unfamiliar with Phil's work/beliefs. I'm just saying that it is easy for a minister to get into IRS trouble without DELIBERATELY doing anything wrong.

One thing I've noticed about the apostles' healing in contrast with the modern concept is that the apostles never were paid for it. They never went on TV either. When identifying false teachers, start first by eliminating all the ones who are getting rich on it.

I believe there are apostolic like gifts in action in the world today, dispensed as God sees fit. They are gifts, not learned traits, not permanent, etc. There is no mention of Apostles creating other Apostles in the bible.