The Petra Zone

There isn't anything specific in the Bible about who can and can't go to church. Good grief, if being perfect or not having areas the Lord needed to change was the criteria for church attendance, nobody would qualify.

The Bible is clear about homosexuality being wrong, but reaching out doesn't equal condoning someone's behavior.

I'm all for seeing sin for what it is and dealing with it, but there are two extremes that I believe are a mistake: One is not seeing the big picture and understanding that the issue with any sin is the disobedience behind it, and that disobedience is disobedience whatever the behavior might be. The other is thinking God's love equals "anything goes" and that you don't have to worry about changing.

The modern church has pretty effectively eliminated any real "dealing" with sin. To say that there should be "a place for homosexuals in the church" is wrong; to say that someone is a homosexual implies that they are actively living that way, which is not to be tolerated by the church. The Bible teaches that people who actively and unrepentingly perform any sin are to be removed from the church. Of course, if a person who is a homosexual becomes a christian and stops doing that sin, then they should by all means be allowed in! It is the same for any sin; you shouldn't have a murderer or idolater actively doing those things within the church, either. These people are heathen and ought to be regarded as such.
And yes, Ray Boltz music has also been shunned by my family a while back.

fiendik wrote:The modern church has pretty effectively eliminated any real "dealing" with sin. To say that there should be "a place for homosexuals in the church" is wrong; to say that someone is a homosexual implies that they are actively living that way, which is not to be tolerated by the church. The Bible teaches that people who actively and unrepentingly perform any sin are to be removed from the church. Of course, if a person who is a homosexual becomes a christian and stops doing that sin, then they should by all means be allowed in! It is the same for any sin; you shouldn't have a murderer or idolater actively doing those things within the church, either. These people are heathen and ought to be regarded as such.
And yes, Ray Boltz music has also been shunned by my family a while back.

I do concur with what you're saying, which is why I said God's love doesn't equal "anything goes." I think the Bible was addressing a situation where people were claiming to be Christians while blatantly living a clearly unchristian lifestyle. Of course sin shouldn't be allowed in a church. I am thinking more of people who aren't claiming to be believers. You don't have to condone what they are doing to reach out to them and point them toward what the Bible says. Of course, that would probably require you getting to know them outside of church and then maybe telling them about your church and talking to them about the Bible if they expressed interest. There is nothing wrong with inviting someone who isn't a believer to church so they can hear the Gospel.

That's basically what I'm trying to say; nonbelievers can be invited to a church, but obviously wouldn't be members. Those who claim to be "Christians" but don't live like it are the same as any other nonbelievers.

Here's an interesting point of view by Dan Haseltine of Jars Of Clay: http://danhaseltine.com/

Here's an interesting point of view by Dan Haseltine of Jars Of Clay: http://danhaseltine.com/

That is interesting and something I need to re-read to see if I understand his direction.

I don't believe in a "customized" faith, although I agree we can experience God differently. I agree with some of his statements, but had the impression he felt "God is whomever we want him to be". Again, that was after a quick read.

His most prophetic point, that Christians cannibalize Christians.

p-freak wrote:

executioner wrote:Not sure what his specifics are on Jars of Clay, but I use to be a fan back in the 90's.
I went and saw them in Houston at 2 shows, one at a church and the next night at a club and it was like seeing 2 different bands. Several songs with upfront Christian lyrics were lyrically changed and basically put love where Jesus was in the lyrics; there was foul language(especially from the guitarist) towards female body parts, plus the same guitarist was clearly loaded on something. I left after about 30 minutes with disgust and if I didn't know any better I would have never known them to proclaim Christianity.

I've been following them closely for years now and what you describe seems quite uncharacteristic. They don't have a lot of songs with upfront Christian lyrics, but deeper content that is clearly Christian without using the obligatory terminology. Listen to All Star United's Song Of The Year and you'll know what I mean. I've never heard of them changing their songs and even if they would, nothing wrong with that. Do you remember who that specific guitarist was?

Fiendik, I'd still like to hear why you mentioned Jars Of Clay. Dan Haseltine is known for speaking out in a way that will sometimes provoke strict evangelicals, but they are not condoning, supporting or living ungodly lifestyles.

I saw Jars of Clay several years ago at one of those outdoor Christian music festivals. I forget who the act was just before them, but there was such an amazing spirit of worship in the air -- I don't know how else to describe it. Then Jars of Clay came out and started their performance, and the spirit instantly changed. It was palpable.

Having said that, that's not why I don't listen to Jars of Clay. I just don't care for their style of music, and to be frank, I don't really get into this whole "guilt by association" thing. If we really took stock of things around us, we'd quickly find that everything is tainted by sin to some degree, whether it's the music you listen to, the movies you watch, the books you read, the stores you shop at, the electronics gadgets you use, the car you drive, etc. That's just the nature of the world we live in. We can still enjoy and appreciate a musical performance without condoning the lives and actions of the people who made it.

I have experienced something like this, not really the same thing, but something that made me not listen to a band any longer. But, it usually has something to do with something they did or said off the stage. This type of water on the fire happens in church all of the time. It could be a matter of the songs not resonating with the people, or the presentation getting in the way. I don't necessarily hold that against the people on the stage, because they are coming on stage to do their thing cold. They don't get to choreograph set lists with everyone else, or program the BPMs for a build up to a finale. Part of me thinks some of the bands are just entertainment and don't facilitate or foster a worship experience. That shouldn't be held against them. After all, they are just musicians, not professional ministers. The other part says, "Gee fellas. You have been in the CCM industry for how many years and you can't read the audience? Why not throw a turd in the punch bowl, what dontcha?"

I'm a festival guy. Been going to Creation since 1992. Their stated goals have always been to pay tribute to our Creator, and to place an importance on the word of God and point people to Jesus. Over the years, they've had artists whose music didn't really fit. They had Amy G during the Baby, Baby years, Stacie O, Owl City, Switchfoot back when they were not doing anything associated with CCM. I'm sure there are others I can't think of right now. I used to get so bent out of shape over them giving a slot to those artists. But, I've come to realize a few things. Those artists represent a very small percentage of the total billing for a given year. Also, it is very expensive to put on a festival. There are plenty of bills to pay, and they can only pay those bills if they sell enough tickets. As Brent said, those artists are entertainment. If having Amy or Switchfoot, or whoever on the bill as entertainment sells more tickets and keeps the festival going, I'm okay with it. If you don't have the festival, you don't have 70,000 or so people on a hillside hearing the gospel.

Mountain Man wrote:

p-freak wrote:

executioner wrote:Not sure what his specifics are on Jars of Clay, but I use to be a fan back in the 90's.
I went and saw them in Houston at 2 shows, one at a church and the next night at a club and it was like seeing 2 different bands. Several songs with upfront Christian lyrics were lyrically changed and basically put love where Jesus was in the lyrics; there was foul language(especially from the guitarist) towards female body parts, plus the same guitarist was clearly loaded on something. I left after about 30 minutes with disgust and if I didn't know any better I would have never known them to proclaim Christianity.

I've been following them closely for years now and what you describe seems quite uncharacteristic. They don't have a lot of songs with upfront Christian lyrics, but deeper content that is clearly Christian without using the obligatory terminology. Listen to All Star United's Song Of The Year and you'll know what I mean. I've never heard of them changing their songs and even if they would, nothing wrong with that. Do you remember who that specific guitarist was?

Fiendik, I'd still like to hear why you mentioned Jars Of Clay. Dan Haseltine is known for speaking out in a way that will sometimes provoke strict evangelicals, but they are not condoning, supporting or living ungodly lifestyles.

I saw Jars of Clay several years ago at one of those outdoor Christian music festivals. I forget who the act was just before them, but there was such an amazing spirit of worship in the air -- I don't know how else to describe it. Then Jars of Clay came out and started their performance, and the spirit instantly changed. It was palpable.

Having said that, that's not why I don't listen to Jars of Clay. I just don't care for their style of music, and to be frank, I don't really get into this whole "guilt by association" thing. If we really took stock of things around us, we'd quickly find that everything is tainted by sin to some degree, whether it's the music you listen to, the movies you watch, the books you read, the stores you shop at, the electronics gadgets you use, the car you drive, etc. That's just the nature of the world we live in. We can still enjoy and appreciate a musical performance without condoning the lives and actions of the people who made it.

Back in their early days(90's) I was a huge Jars fan, but I attended 2 shows with them on back to back nights(one in a church and the other in a small secular venue) in Houston and was totally ashamed and turned off by what I saw from the secular venue. At the church their big emphasis was on God & worship and at the secular venue they chose to change some lyrics to play with the "secular crowd scene" and about half the set list was secular covers from 60's /70's era groups like The Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, etc etc and also used some bad language on the stage. It was like 2 totally different bands and would have never guessed that these guys were so called Christians or even proclaimed to be. I would have to say that Stephen Mason(guitars) was pretty wasted while on stage.

I never liked JOC or many bands from that era, now that I think about it.

But, I will offer up this thought. In Genesis, we get the idea that nature praises God just by existing. Man praises God by working, providing, loving, etc. It is possible for people who do not know God to be praising him without their knowledge. It is possible for Christians to praise God without getting all Christianese. So, just being able to play music, praises God. So, far be it from me to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say some band doesn't praise or worship enough. P&W is not a genre. It is not a type of song service. Those things are actions and ways of life. The lyrics don't have to be deep. They just have to be true.

Anytime a Christian band goes to secular venues, it kind of throws up a read flag. Who in the world wants to pay good money to see a Christian band and get preached at? Not many. The only way that model works is if a watery band like Stryper does it. If Petra were to do it, it would not be a big draws. Is there anything wrong with going into the world? absolutely not. Just saying that most bands don't evangelize like that and there won't be many coming for that purpose.

I would rather see Christian musicians playing in secular bands, doing there thing in secular venues. That seems less suspicious to me, and probably more effective.

Deep thoughts by Jack Handy.