Trump Tape

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:44 pm

You seem to suppose that I have oppionions which I don't. I have not claimed that the hacking had any influence on the election. That is impossible to know. However I happen to find it interesting that the president elect officially claims that he does not trust his own intelligence services. And he claims to know that even before he speaks with them. I don't think it's unfair to point to the fact that it is biased (even though it may prove to be right).

If you believe in democracy any attempt to obstruct it must be regarded as serious. The fact that this attempt may not have had an effect does not mean that attacks against democratic proces is itself insignificant. I would say any foreign contry's attempt to influence an election by illegitimate means should be ragarded as being of national interest. You wouldn't want the Russians to have any influence on comming elections e.g. by undermining Mr. Trump's campaign for the next election. And though I don't agree with him in many cases neither would I.

The fact that we do not know if it were the Russians and don't even know (since it cannot be know for certain) if it had an influence is disturbing in itself. By all means it was a very close election and the number of people who favoured Hillary was actually larger than the number of people in favor of Trump.

As regards Noam Chomsky his political view is not one I share completely. That does not rule out the fact that he has interesting perspectives on important matters. The approach of attacking the person instead of his statements is a very simple logical fallacy. He has been an import critic of the way the rich countries have handled the poor people fleeing from Syria to mention just one recent activity on his side.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:48 am

No matter your opinion on this case I think this article is a quite balanced presentation of the recent development: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38538002

If it were the Russians they sure have succeded - if not by influencing the election then by undermining at least some peoples trust in democratic proces. Thus they have weakened some peoples trust in the American president-elect. And they have put him in a situation in which he denies the intelligence reports of his own intelligence services. That is going to be of huge importance in a given future situation in which Trump is going to base difficult decisions on intelligence reports. And should the Russians attack again, Trump will be in a very difficult situation. The evidence will probably be much the same. There is not going to be a direct link to Putin - there never is in such cases. So if Trump is going to strike back he will have to contradict most of what he has said about this specific case so far. Putin will be smiling while using Trumps own words and calling it a political witch-hunt. The old KGB agent succeded again.

If it were the political oponents then I will have to say that some of you are right in your critique of them. Because this is surely damaging to American authority no matter what. It appears to me to be too much of a conspiration to believe that NSA, CIA and FBI are all lying about the matters in this case based on a decision of a soon to be has-been president: "Russian president Vladimir Putin interfered in the US presidential election to aid Donald Trump, according to a declassified assessment by the NSA, CIA and FBI"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... nald-trump

Finally let's not forget: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/28/us/po ... .html?_r=0

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Dan » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:49 pm

Quoting the BBC as
curt wrote:balanced presentation
destroys credibility immediately. BBC will never be taken seriously after what they did to Sir Cliff. Time to move on.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Dan » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:18 pm


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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Mountain Man » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:12 am

curt wrote:...the president elect officially claims that he does not trust his own intelligence services.
Sorry, but that never happened.
curt wrote:If you believe in democracy any attempt to obstruct it must be regarded as serious.
Including attempts by our own liberal media to sway voter loyalties with biased coverage and false narratives?
curt wrote:The fact that we do not know if it were the Russians and don't even know (since it cannot be know for certain) if it had an influence is disturbing in itself.
It's not disturbing at all because it suggests that the election was not unduly influenced by the hacks.
curt wrote:By all means it was a very close election and the number of people who favoured Hillary was actually larger than the number of people in favor of Trump.
First of all, the popular vote is irrelevant. Trump won more states than Hillary and demolished her in the electoral college. That's all that matters. Secondly, if you take away ultra-liberal California then Hillary loses the popular vote by 3-million, so you're basically saying that the presidency should be decided by a single state. No thank you. Not to mention the over 200 precincts around Detroit, Michigan where Hillary won more votes than there are registered voters (gee, that's not suspicious at all), or Virginia where tens of thousands of ineligible voters were nevertheless allowed to vote.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... precincts/
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... d-coverup/

And who knows what other shenanigans the Democrats pulled on election day. Which is to say that we have good reason to question the legitimacy of Hillary's supposed popular vote victory.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:48 pm

curt wrote:...the president elect officially claims that he does not trust his own intelligence services.
Mountain Man wrote:[Sorry, but that never happened.
Well it sure did. He has called what they are involved in a political witch-hunt. And you shuld not be surprised at all. It is not the first time he has made claims leadning to the conclusion that he does not trust U.S. intelligence. He has even made that quite clear: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/t ... ing-227109

A very short time ago you said that anyone with a common sence would disagree with the intellegence services when I pointed to the fact that Trump disagreed with them. So it should not be a problem for you that he does not trust them. The interesting part is that it seems to get a bit harder for him to stick to those claims.
curt wrote:If you believe in democracy any attempt to obstruct it must be regarded as serious.
Mountain Man wrote:Including attempts by our own liberal media to sway voter loyalties with biased coverage and false narratives?
Off course. That's why I happen to like Noam Chomsky's criticism of the regular media. But do you really believe that only liberal media are involved in this kind of thing?
curt wrote:The fact that we do not know if it were the Russians and don't even know (since it cannot be know for certain) if it had an influence is disturbing in itself.
Mountain Man wrote:It's not disturbing at all because it suggests that the election was not unduly influenced by the hacks.
Well it "suggests"... No one will be able to tell to what degree it influenced the mind of the individual voter. Thus the intellegence services don't make any claims in that regard. What the do claim is that the attempt of influencing was there. And they also claim that the number of votes were counted correctly, but that of course does not mean that people would not have voted differently if thet had not been influenced.
curt wrote:By all means it was a very close election and the number of people who favoured Hillary was actually larger than the number of people in favor of Trump.
Mountain Man wrote:First of all, the popular vote is irrelevant. Trump won more states than Hillary and demolished her in the electoral college. That's all that matters. Secondly, if you take away ultra-liberal California then Hillary loses the popular vote by 3-million, so you're basically saying that the presidency should be decided by a single state. No thank you. Not to mention the over 200 precincts around Detroit, Michigan where Hillary won more votes than there are registered voters (gee, that's not suspicious at all), or Virginia where tens of thousands of ineligible voters were nevertheless allowed to vote.
Popular vote is not irrelevant if the point is to show that it was a very close election. And that was my point. I have never made a claim that one state should decide the presidency. Neither have I created the election system or claimed that I found all of it perfect.

I did read a very interesting opinion on this case today by Nick Cohen which gives a knowledgable presentation of the situation. It is obviously a subjective statement since it is in the opinion sector. However I happen to believe he is right in his main point that Americans (not necessarily without good reason) were frustrated and were very aware what they woted against but not aware what they voted for. As he puts it:

"Nationalism always breaks its promises because nationalists hate enemies in their countries more than they hate the enemies of their countries. Millions of American conservatives proved it when they voted for Donald Trump, even though he was an open admirer of a hostile foreign power."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... everywhere

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:50 pm

Sorry, Mountain Man, but it appears Trump has lost his common sense (according to your statement that everyone with a common sense would disagree with the intellegence services): https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ce-priebus
Last edited by curt on Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by brent » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:37 pm

sense.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:23 am

Fixed it. Thank you Brent.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Mountain Man » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:36 am

curt wrote:Sorry, Mountain Man, but it appears Trump has lost his common sense (according to your statement that everyone with a common sense would disagree with the intellegence services): https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ce-priebus
Yes, he agrees that "entities in Russia were behind this particular hacking campaign", but nobody has disputed that. What we don't know is exactly who those entities are, what they did, or how they did it. Furthermore, everybody seems to agree, from Obama on down, that the hacking did not influence the election in any meaningful way (especially with the way the mainstream media worked overtime to bury the email leaks and rehabilitate Hillary's image with puff pieces and fake polling data).

But what's being lost in all of this is that Democrats are basically saying, "We might have won the election if 'hackers' hadn't exposed just how dirty and corrupt we really are!"

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by no one » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:58 pm

Will John sing at the inauguration? :lol:

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Dan » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:10 am

no one wrote:Will John sing at the inauguration? :lol:
He was going to be singing the national anthem at the inauguration, unfortunately Russia hacked the schedule, and a hologram of Jim Nabors is now singing.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:48 am

Just read this today in this rather interesting article:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 06093.html

"The holier-than-thou attitude of white Evangelicals was exposed in this election to be no more than a false cliche.

Their 80 percent vote in favour of known-to-be a "serial liar", casino owner, thrice-married women groper, who appeared in Playboy videos, is a testimony to their hypocrisy.

Yes, they hated Clinton and what she stood for in terms of abortion rights and women's rights, but they also liked and embraced Trump's xenophobic and indeed racist statements about Latinos and Muslims."

Let me know your opinions. Not surprisingly I happen to think that the writer is on to something.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Dan » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:08 pm

Trump has done some crazy stuff in his personal life sure, but please don’t compare that to Clinton's thirst for the increased murder of unborn humans. I get that you are far left, and that must be hard for a Christian.

p.s Muslims are not a race. here is some basic info on what race is http://www.buzzle.com/articles/list-of-human-races.html

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by brent » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:38 pm

What a total crock of horse pucks. An election is not a litmus test for the faith of the people. Voting for Trump for me was damage control band aiding and no more. I do not embrace and align myself with all of Trumps actions and beliefs (don't know for sure, because he has never called me up and disclosed them all to me....or anyone else here). I DO align with more of Trump than Clinton. Who knew what she stood for? She is on record flip flopping so many times. Trump has been consistent. There are videos dating back to the 90s with him saying what he said in the debates. Hillary flip flopped on gay marriage, murdering babies, etc. Trump hasn't been investigated for fraud, murder, etc. Death surrounds the Clintons, not Trump.

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