Trump Tape

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by brent » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:27 pm

It only matters what the people at the very top intended. There will always be cafeteria participants, picking and choosing what suits them. But they are not legit or true to the form, are they? They would not be accepted by the originators of the religion/system. This is true for cafeteria Christians, Muslims and Catholics. There is one rule that all are measured against, in each belief system. All of them say if you do not conform, you are not legit and subject to judgement. So, we can't base our laws and actions to accommodate the disobedient of Islam. Who is to say one day they won't have a "come to Allah moment" and begin acting like a true Islamic believer, creating havoc in our country?

BTW, this is going to create some problems for me. You see, I have a cousin who married a Muslim. She made a profession of faith in Christ and was baptized in her teens. She didn't grow and eventually went wild. After a bad marriage, and time living as a single mother of three, she found this guy, whom I have never met. He had her converted in short order. I would not hesitate to have even my own family deported, if I thought they were responsible for harming anyone, especially children. Look, we can't throw pearls before swine. We are stupid if we refuse to do the math. There will be a time when we will have more Muslims in office than Christians. We already have more Muslims in cabinet positions, appointed by Obama, than any other time in history. Wake up people. It is us or them. Pick a side.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:10 pm

I think your reply, Brent, makes it quite clear why some people ban all kinds off religion as being basically the same, namely fundamentalism. Their claim is that all religion is dangerous, because all religious people are so certain that they are ultimately right. Your "us of them" statement is stuff that can be the basis of such a view on religion. I disagree with you completely. Have I misunderstood you or are you presenting a political system discarded as religion in what you are saying since you base your opinion on the fact that there are more muslims than christians and thus we must pick side? Is political law to be based on such facts? How does it differ from any other political religious system? And where does the Bible allow for the establishment of such a system. Did Jesus count truth or safety in numbers?

Of course any religious person - Christian or Muslim - can become a fundamentalist. Who is to say that the good christian father is not someday inspired by Abraham, Martin Luther or some other charachter and does horrible things. Anders Bering Breivik claimed he was acting on a christian standpoint against muslims. So yes theoretically that could happen to christians, muslims, atheist, agnostics or whoever. But judging on the shere fact that it may happen is poor logic. Any customer in a shop might steal. But it would be unfair to not allow a regular customer into the shop becuase of the fact that some people steal. So again the logic is poor and unfair when you point to the fact that a moderate muslim may become a radical muslim.

Regarding your point that it only matters what the top intended. How does it relate to Jesus presenting a truth which was quite againt the conventional understanding? How does it relate to the basic lutheran doctrine that there are no authorities given a specific authority when it comes to interpreting the bible? And who says those on the top are the guys with the correct understanding? I mean, to take Luther again, I would not suspect that many christians share his view on jews or turkish people. And who are the guys on the top?Luther or the pope when it comes to christianity? Well at least historically they were each others opponents so then christianity would become contradictory. The (poor) logic that only extremist muslims are the real muslims may in fact serve as in instrument for the radicalizing people. In fact the leaders of islamic state want the west to believe that there are no moderate muslims because they just want conflict. They want us to hate muslims because it makes it easier for muslims to hate us. Pick a side....???? Since the world is not flat or two dimensional I prefer to go for a balanced view.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by brent » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:15 pm

I totally agree about the anyone becoming a fundamentalist nut. Heck, we have a group of attorneys KS, calling themselves a church. They picket anything they don't agree with, to shake them down. People do lots of illegal things in the name of God. Too many former Muslims turned Christian will tell you the violence IS normal, IS mandated in the Quran. There is a huge difference between Christian people making incorrect decisions with good intentions and a political system demanding living a certain way, under penalty of death.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Mountain Man » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:23 pm

curt wrote:The new testament has got some very poorly balanced views on homosexuality etc. etc.
Your suggestion that God's moral commandments are somehow "poorly balanced" tells me everything I need to know about your skewed understanding of scripture.
curt wrote:Pick a side....???? Since the world is not flat or two dimensional I prefer to go for a balanced view.
A "balanced view"?

"So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth." Revelation 3:16
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:26 pm

Well it never was my intention to sound pro islam and thus I have no problem accepting the fact that there is a lot of violence in the religion. My only point is that what a religion is - at least practically speaking - is not only a question of what a certain holy text might say but just as much how it is interpreted. History will change that over and over again. On a much more peaceful note christianity has undergone fundament changes in the interpretation of the womans role. Just to name one example.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:37 pm

Mr. Mountain Man

So since I dont put all muslims in the same box and claim they all believe in the same extremist interpretation God must be very angry at me? Seeing other people from more than one angle is against God's will?

What you actually seem to imply is that not picking side politically and fighting a certain religion politically equals not picking side religiously. If that is correct then you are supporting a political religion.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by brent » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:08 pm

If we may, lets go back a bit to the homosexuality thing.

The bible is clear in the OT. Homosexuality is used in the same complete thoughts of sentences as having sexual relations with animals. It is condemned. Period. There is no left side or right side of the issue. There is the right side. God says don't do it, and people that DO do it will not see God. So, there goes the concept of gay Christians. It makes no difference which sinful predisposition you are born with. They are all evil and none should be practiced. We don't get a free pass to practice any sin, because we were born with a natural hankering for it.

I have spoken to some Christian pastoral staff members who counsel men who have practiced homosexuality, in the Kansas City area. A VERY large percentage of them were abused or taught how to do it by family members. In fact, our church had special event about homosexuality last year. We had a few speakers, one of which was a pastor visit, who was abused as a child. He grew up thinking his grandfather was just showing love. Then, he got saved and his world changed. His take on the subject was eye opening to say the least. It is easy for Christians to write off people in this position, because they don't know how to deal with it. They know how to condemn the sin, while letting their preferred sins to continue. Notice, this pastor condemned it, acknowledged it was abhorrent behavior before God, and he did not give anyone an out for practicing homosexuality as a believer. That spoke volumes.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Shell » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:24 pm

curt wrote: The new testament has got some very poorly balanced views on homosexuality etc. etc.
I am sort of curious about how the Bible doesn't give a balanced view about homosexuality also. The Bible is clear about homosexuality being a sin. (The Bible also says it's a sin for straight people to sleep with anyone other than the person they are married to by the way, but that is a topic for another post).

I do get the idea that not all Muslims are terrorists; I think the issue is how do you go about determining that and agree it may not be that cut-and-dry.

About issues like slavery, you need to look at the big picture. The Bible deals with God interacting with people during ancient times. Slavery was a common thing in the ancient Middle East, Rome and Greece at the time the Bible was written, and although that doesn't make it right, it was a cultural thing and cultures can be pretty messed up.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Thief » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:40 pm

brent wrote:If we may, lets go back a bit to the homosexuality thing.

The bible is clear in the OT. Homosexuality is used in the same complete thoughts of sentences as having sexual relations with animals. It is condemned. Period. There is no left side or right side of the issue. There is the right side. God says don't do it, and people that DO do it will not see God. So, there goes the concept of gay Christians. It makes no difference which sinful predisposition you are born with. They are all evil and none should be practiced. We don't get a free pass to practice any sin, because we were born with a natural hankering for it.
And that's your belief as a Christian, which is fine. But not everybody shares that belief. And in a secular country like the US, where there is a clear separation of church and state, people and politicians can't advocate for laws and restrictions that discriminate against people that are or think differently; be it gays, or Muslims, or anybody else.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by brent » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:49 pm

Right, but in the context of Curt's reply, he was saying the bible is unclear. The bible is VERY clear, EVERYwhere about homosexuality. So is the Quran for that matter.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Mountain Man » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:50 pm

curt wrote:So since I dont put all muslims in the same box and claim they all believe in the same extremist interpretation God must be very angry at me? Seeing other people from more than one angle is against God's will?
It seemed to me that by "balanced view" you were suggesting that Christianity and Islam were somehow on equal footing as far as truth claims are concerned. If this is not correct then I apologize.

However, I still take issue with your claim that the New Testament has "some very poorly balanced views on homosexuality", or that certain commands in the Old Testament are based on the fickle whims of God.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Shell » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Thief wrote:
brent wrote:If we may, lets go back a bit to the homosexuality thing.

The bible is clear in the OT. Homosexuality is used in the same complete thoughts of sentences as having sexual relations with animals. It is condemned. Period. There is no left side or right side of the issue. There is the right side. God says don't do it, and people that DO do it will not see God. So, there goes the concept of gay Christians. It makes no difference which sinful predisposition you are born with. They are all evil and none should be practiced. We don't get a free pass to practice any sin, because we were born with a natural hankering for it.
And that's your belief as a Christian, which is fine. But not everybody shares that belief. And in a secular country like the US, where there is a clear separation of church and state, people and politicians can't advocate for laws and restrictions that discriminate against people that are or think differently; be it gays, or Muslims, or anybody else.
Okay, that is a valid point; you can't force people to follow the Bible. That does work both ways however...Christians shouldn't be discriminated against either.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Mountain Man » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:58 pm

Shell wrote:About issues like slavery, you need to look at the big picture. The Bible deals with God interacting with people during ancient times. Slavery was a common thing in the ancient Middle East, Rome and Greece at the time the Bible was written, and although that doesn't make it right, it was a cultural thing and cultures can be pretty messed up.
Israelite law also had some very progressive ideas about slavery, such as the fact that slaves were not property, that they were not to be abused or treated harshly, and that they were to be eventually freed. This was a sharp contrast to the surrounding nations and one of the many things that made Israel a "peculiar nation". For the Israelite, selling oneself into slavery was a viable means of attaining economic security.
Last edited by Mountain Man on Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Mountain Man » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:12 pm

Thief wrote:
brent wrote:If we may, lets go back a bit to the homosexuality thing.

The bible is clear in the OT. Homosexuality is used in the same complete thoughts of sentences as having sexual relations with animals. It is condemned. Period. There is no left side or right side of the issue. There is the right side. God says don't do it, and people that DO do it will not see God. So, there goes the concept of gay Christians. It makes no difference which sinful predisposition you are born with. They are all evil and none should be practiced. We don't get a free pass to practice any sin, because we were born with a natural hankering for it.
And that's your belief as a Christian, which is fine. But not everybody shares that belief. And in a secular country like the US, where there is a clear separation of church and state, people and politicians can't advocate for laws and restrictions that discriminate against people that are or think differently; be it gays, or Muslims, or anybody else.
There wasn't always a "clear separation of Church and state". That only came about in the 1960's when some activist judges on the Supreme Court plucked a phrase from out of context and enshrined it into law. Ironically, the letter they pulled that phrase from was arguing for the exact opposite of what the Court ruled!

Look at this excerpt from a letter that George Washington wrote to the Delaware Indian chiefs:
christiananswers.net wrote:"You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention."

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/wal-g011.html
You still want to tell me that "separation of church and state" as it's commonly understood today was the intent of our Founding Fathers?
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Re: Trump Tape

Post by brent » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:46 pm

Separation of Church and State does not exist in any of the founding father's documents. The phrase first appeared in a letter written by Lincoln. They understood the concept to mean that the state would not create a church. Church used to be held in the Capital building on Sundays, preached by Presidents and other government officials. Read the true history, not the crap they try to re-write. In the 1800s, states had laws stating anyone holding public office MUST BE A CHRISTIAN. I guess everyone today knows better than the people who lived it. Too bad the people who wrote the documents and built this country didn't have our insight to know what they really meant. I am sick of liberals. Leave the country. Please.
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