Trump Tape

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Trump Tape

Post by brent » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:40 pm

Trump has demonstrated he is quite able to put both feet in his mouth, while talking out of his backside. Allies like Israel would rather have Hillary in the Whitehouse, because they know what they are getting (not that they like her). But, do you really think of the activities potential politicians have done in their past? Who hasn't sinned? Who hasn't said things or done things they are ashamed of now? Who REALLY lives their life as if they are going to be P.O.T.U.S.? Who of us lived like we were God's before we agreed to he His?

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:10 am

These are depressing days.

While I feel obliged to actually show an intellectual interest in the political debate some of Trumps statements, his lies, his opinions on women, Islam, the use of nuclear weapons, Putin and so on are so far beyond the scope of what is respectable. I get in the mood of giving up. I would have no interest in his opinions if it wasn't for the fact that he might become the American president. The fact that that is even a possibility is far beyond my understanding. And if all of this wasn't enough Hillary of course has her own history and is not someone I would be happy to see as the American president - though I much prefer her to trump.

As regards Brent's question I believe you would be able to find horrible tapes on any person, especially if it was recorded without the person knowing it. But in the case of Trump, I believe that this was the last drop for quite a lot of person who have perhaps been doubtfull for quite a long periode - and with very good reason. It is proven again and again that this man i lying and thus it is not very surprising that people are reluctant to accept his apoligies for this statement.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Mountain Man » Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:45 pm

I'm baffled why people think that Trump's words are so scandalous when Bill and Hillary Clinton have both said and done much, much worse.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:32 am

Examples?

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by brent » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:28 am

Are you kidding?

The Clintons are well connected criminals.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:18 pm

Trump wants to discriminate because of religion, he has a dicriminate approach to women, he wants to reinforce certain kinds of torture, has showed a shocking willingness to use nuclear weapons, wants to build a physical wall, has lied over and over again in the campaign and has a dangerous approach to NATO.

Kidding? About what? Never said I was pro Clinton. She is just the least dangerous of the two.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by brent » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:59 pm

Wait a sec. Islam is a political system with a religion. It is not only a religion. The world isn't being sucker-bombed by any other religion. It just so happens that all of the people claiming responsibility ARE Islamic terrorists. When the police release information on the nightly news about people they are looking for, they give the make, model, color and maybe the tags of the car they are looking for. They give the sex, approximate age, weight and height of the people they are looking for. That is profiling. Profiling is an essential part of protecting and solving crime. Trump is wanting to do the same thing with Islam. I agree with it. The burden of proof should be on anyone coming into this country, not on ours to prove they shouldn't.

She IS the most dangerous, Selling herself for donations to her foundation, which has only given 6% of each dollar for the causes they say they are helping? All of those missing emails? Cover-ups? Being fired from presidential prosecution because of her lying tongue and corruption? Law firm cover-ups and illegal activities? People who were testifying against her and Bill winding up dead? What has Trump done that is THAT bad?

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Mountain Man » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:21 pm

curt wrote:Trump wants to discriminate because of religion, he has a dicriminate approach to women, he wants to reinforce certain kinds of torture, has showed a shocking willingness to use nuclear weapons, wants to build a physical wall, has lied over and over again in the campaign and has a dangerous approach to NATO.

Kidding? About what? Never said I was pro Clinton. She is just the least dangerous of the two.
No offense, but you sound like you're getting your information exclusively from 30-second campaign ads.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Thief » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:08 pm

brent wrote:Wait a sec. Islam is a political system with a religion. It is not only a religion. The world isn't being sucker-bombed by any other religion. It just so happens that all of the people claiming responsibility ARE Islamic terrorists. When the police release information on the nightly news about people they are looking for, they give the make, model, color and maybe the tags of the car they are looking for. They give the sex, approximate age, weight and height of the people they are looking for. That is profiling. Profiling is an essential part of protecting and solving crime. Trump is wanting to do the same thing with Islam. I agree with it. The burden of proof should be on anyone coming into this country, not on ours to prove they shouldn't.
Islam is NOT a political system; it is a religion. The fact that some countries base their laws and judicial system in it is a different matter, and you're bound to find very different levels of implementation of Sharia law within all the countries that use Islam within their government in any form.

As for the world being "sucker-bombed" by Islam/other religions and that "all of the people claiming responsibility ARE Islamic terrorists", that's pretty far from true. The world is a pretty big place, and you'll find terrorists from almost every religion, creed, and belief in it. From the Catholic IRA in Ireland and the non-religious ETA in Spain, to multiple Christian terrorist groups currently terrorizing Africa and countless of other Christian extremist groups even within the USA. Multiple studies from the FBI and other agencies have shown that the percentage of Muslims responsible from terrorist attacks within the US and in the world is either small, or not significantly larger than any other religion or cause.

With that in mind, I think it is neither moral, nor fair or Constitutional to say that a certain group of people (i.e. Muslims) shouldn't enter your country because you think they are more likely to commit a crime. It is one thing to use certain evidence to tie a specific group to a specific crime, but it is a whole different thing to ban a whole group of people based on their religion just because. There are currently more than 3 million Muslims living in the US. If ALL of them were terrorists, many of you would already be dead. Should there be background checks to anyone entering the country? Of course. I expect that there currently are, but it should apply to everyone, and not just to specific groups based on generalizations like "ALL Muslims are terrorists".

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by brent » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:39 pm

Former Muslims who became Christians would disagree with you, so would the Quran, Ravi Z and Islamic organizations.

https://www.politicalislam.com/about/

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by brent » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:41 pm

number of islamic terrorist attacks

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Mountain Man » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:25 am

Thief wrote:Islam is NOT a political system; it is a religion.
It is a political ideology masquerading as a religion. Muhammad was a warlord who created Islam to instill discipline into his followers and whip them up into a fighting frenzy.
Thief wrote:With that in mind, I think it is neither moral, nor fair or Constitutional to say that a certain group of people (i.e. Muslims) shouldn't enter your country because you think they are more likely to commit a crime.
It is, in fact, 100% legal.

8 U.S. Code § 1182 - Inadmissible aliens
(f) Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President

Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Thief » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:20 am

brent wrote:Former Muslims who became Christians would disagree with you, so would the Quran, Ravi Z and Islamic organizations.

https://www.politicalislam.com/about/
Mountain Man wrote: It is a political ideology masquerading as a religion. Muhammad was a warlord who created Islam to instill discipline into his followers and whip them up into a fighting frenzy.
That's bound to happen, disagreeing. We can't all agree on everything. Many Muslims and non-Muslims see it as something political, others don't. Are there political aspects to Islam? Sure, just like there is to any religion like Buddhism, Judaism, or Christianity. There are branches within Islam (sometimes called Islamism or Political Islam) that advocate for a greater inclusion of Islam laws and beliefs in the government and politics of a country, while there are other branches that don't advocate for that.
Mountain Man wrote: 8 U.S. Code § 1182 - Inadmissible aliens
(f) Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President

Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182
And unfortunately, there are Presidents that have acted upon that like with Asian immigrants on several occasions. Now, doing it based on a religion is a far shakier ground, and ultimately unnecessary, when there are other mechanisms to protect the borders. When there are studies and evidence pointing to the fact that ALL Muslims AREN'T terrorists, it becomes a moot point. In the end, applying such a ban goes against the spirit of the Constitution, and against what the United States ultimately represents.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by Mountain Man » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:28 am

Thief wrote:That's bound to happen, disagreeing. We can't all agree on everything. Many Muslims and non-Muslims see it as something political, others don't. Are there political aspects to Islam? Sure, just like there is to any religion like Buddhism, Judaism, or Christianity. There are branches within Islam (sometimes called Islamism or Political Islam) that advocate for a greater inclusion of Islam laws and beliefs in the government and politics of a country, while there are other branches that don't advocate for that.
First of all, Christianity is an apolitical religion. Jesus put that matter to rest once and for all when he said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's." Jesus came to establish the Church whose sole purpose is to spread the Gospel through word and deed, he didn't come to establish a political movement.

Second, which Muslims are following the example of Muhammad: the so-called "radicals", or the so-called "moderates"? Point being, the only way to be a "moderate" Muslim is to ignore the teachings and example of Islam's founder and the clear commands of the Koran which allow for zero tolerance of "infidels". Ask yourself, what will happen to the world if all the "moderate" Muslims were to suddenly take Islam seriously?
Thief wrote:
Mountain Man wrote: 8 U.S. Code § 1182 - Inadmissible aliens
(f) Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President

Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182
And unfortunately, there are Presidents that have acted upon that like with Asian immigrants on several occasions. Now, doing it based on a religion is a far shakier ground, and ultimately unnecessary, when there are other mechanisms to protect the borders. When there are studies and evidence pointing to the fact that ALL Muslims AREN'T terrorists, it becomes a moot point. In the end, applying such a ban goes against the spirit of the Constitution, and against what the United States ultimately represents.
Look, when you're talking about a "religion" that explicitly teaches that it is righteous to ruthlessly butcher those who hold a different worldview then I don't think you're on shaky ground at all to say we need to put reasonable safeguards in place.

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Re: Trump Tape

Post by curt » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:13 pm

There is a number off quotes from the Bible that most christians either in or out of context would not understand litterally but metaphorically. I'm in no way pro islam. I just find it a bit ridicioulus when religious people blame other religious people for having to interpret their holy book. The old testament contains guidelines on how to keep slaves, it claims the earth was created in six days, many people, including women and children, are put throgh torture or dead because of some ideas God seems to have. The new testament has got some very poorly balanced views on homosexuality etc. etc. Martin Luther argued that his great hate on Turkish people was based on scripture. The same man wanted to burn jewish synagoges and so on. So lets not pretend it simple.

Regarding Brents understanding off Islam I think the situation is quite complicated. He is right that at the moment and in our part of the world most (not all) terrorists are muslims. However this by no means establishes the fact that all muslims are terrorists. Hence treating all muslims as dangerous is very proplematic and such a logic would be very disadvantaging if it is allowed to live and grow. Most terrorists are religious, most terrorists are men and so on... Of course you can go for the bad logic of "all terrorists are muslims, thus all muslims are terrorist" or you can be of the opinion that while we are very well of in our part of the world, real human beings, according to christianity even people who were created by God, should be banned in the worst historical crisis when they are in tremendeous need off help.

The claim that Islam is a political system is true to some extent - because that is what islam is for some people. It is not a political system for quite many other muslims and thus the claim that islam is a political system is only partly true. To claim that christianity is not a political religion is also only partly true since it has been used over and over in a political context. Of course you may claim that what you are presenting is the correct understandig of what the religion really is, but as long as members of the religion disagree your judgement is not valid in a socialogical context and is not a describtion of what adherents to the religion actually believe. I mean: Do christians believe the world was created in six/seven days? Do christians believe litterally in all predictions in the revelation of John. Do they all believe Moses actually parted the water etc.

And talking about world crisis. Look at what Putin is doing in Ukarine and Syria. Need I remind you that Trump wants to cooperate with Putin? Putins records are so extremely bad. He is responsible for such a lot of suffering inside and outside Russia. And he is currently pointing even more of his bombs againt Europe and is being very confrontatoric.

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