Theological advice from unlikely sources.

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curt
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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by curt » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:04 am

Dan wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:39 pm
Well of course the government is going to issue statements like that, it is affecting their image, makes them look weak when there are no go zones.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39047455
Hi Dan. Thank you for your response to the content i linked to.

Well, I'll agree that is one way you can look at it, and there may be some truth to it. I don't believe it's the entire truth about it. Far from. I believe they want to put some perspective one a rather one-sided debate in which most people only focus on negative stories (and they are there to be found) and forget rather many positive stories and the need in which these refugees found themselves before they got to Sweden, Germany or whereever. I think one sidedness is a sign of weaknes. I think the need to make up an event (like Trump did) is a sign of weaknes. He is the worlds most powerful man and his untrue story will affect many of the worlds weakest people. Is that fair?

I have never denied problems in Sweden or Germany and I have no problem believing your story from BBC. It does not change my view that there are other relecvant aspects to consider.

Just out of interest. You have previously claimed BBC were completely unreliable due to what the did to Cliff Richards. You wrote: "BBC will never be taken seriously after what they did to Sir Cliff. Time to move on." viewtopic.php?f=2&t=57491&start=75

For what reason did you change your mind?

Best wishes

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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by Dan » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:51 am


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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by curt » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:06 pm

I am no expert on RT (formerly Russia Today) but I wonder why you would put too much trust in that media. Two very important facts about it convinced me we should be sceptical.

First of all it is Russian and while Russians in themselves are not suspicious, the media in Russia do not live with the same protection and freedom as in Europe and the USA. Some journalists in Russia have voiced their oppinion on the government. Most of them are no longer doing it since they were killed with no direct link to the government in Russia but very, very likely they were the force behind it. How come all critical journalists (critical towards the government) happen to die in traffic incidents in Russia?

Second RT is funded by the government in Russia. Since I do not trust the Russian government at all and find them to be completely lacking any decency and moral that of course is important (at least to me). With Putin being former KGB (with no regrets) I would expect him to use any media for propaganda means.

What is your oppinion on that?


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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by curt » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:02 am

Just to make sure we understand each other correctly. I have no problem admitting that there are some problems in Sweden and Germany due to a very large number of refugees among wich very few are extremists or terrorist. Hundreds of thousands of them are not and they could be left dying or living under very, very bad conditions due to the fact that some (very few) refugees are terrorists. I don't think that is a fair way to treat human beings. So again: what about the hundred of thousands innocent people?

There have been numerous terror plots directed against Denmark in the last more than 10 years. However the reason for that is mainly the Muhammed cartoons (I assume that they are known all over the world?) and the fact that Denmark engaged in the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. Many of those plots were planned by extremists not living in Denmark. Denmark had a terror attack a few years ago in which a very young man shot at a forum discussing whether it is fair to make fun of religion. He killed a man outside the building who tried to stop him. Later he went to the jewish synagoge and killed one of their guards. The terrorist was found and killed the day after.

In Scandiniva it is often pointed out that the largest terrorist attack in which more than 70 people died was done by a Christian (Breivik) and so if we were to generalise we would be in deep trouble ourselves. I don't think there is no need to cover things up. I guess I have made my position on refugees undertandable by now. I also think it is important to point out that though Breivik called himself a Christian his understanding of it clearly differs to such a large extent that it is completely pointles to put him in the same box as (almost all) other Christians.

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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by Dan » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:10 pm

Breivik was a lone wolf, Christians denounce his actions. Muslims rarely denounce the actions of terrorism. Breivik had no help from anyone from what I understand and he is a psychopath. There are good people out there, my family are immigrants and we followed the laws of the land to escape persecution. You don't open the flood gates for people, there needs to be a better process so people can be tested before entering civilized countries. Otherwise they will be homeless like the 10's of millions that line the streets already in the US an Europe.

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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by brent » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:26 pm

So many people are saying we should do the Christian thing and let everyone in our life boat. I think "doing the Christian thing" is one dimensional. We are to do good by those wanting in and screw those already here. Sounds like history repeating itself.

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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by curt » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:50 am

To claim that one can only help those in need by screwing those already here seems very one-dimensional in itself.

Why would one need to screw anyone by helping someone else? I wonder why a Christian, or anyone else for that matter, would have to think in those narrow minded terms.

It is always easy to claim that the extremes will not work. No country can take everyone. I have never heard anyone say that by the way. You seem to use the existence of such a claim to support the idea that the opposite extreme is more fair. There seems to be no room in the middle.

Regarding the history repeating itself I can agree that it sure seems to happen. I just do not agree with you regarding what page we are on. Both in Europe and the USA many Christians make the claim that becuase we are Christians we shall close our door and take care of ourself and our own culture, religion and property (regarding the property it is not said so openly). In practical terms "doing the Christian thing" means doing nothing to help those in need in many cases. I think that is one-dimensional. And why would anyone - apart from those obviously living with the benefit of it - regard it as praiseworthy thing?

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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by brent » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:37 am

Kurt, I only read the first paragraph and that's all I need to read from your post. You obviously are not from the United States, live in the United States, or work in the education system in the United States. My wife and daughters do. I can tell you that the immigration problem is adversely affecting schools that were once thriving, producing high-caliber students. The schools have the same amount of money, if not less, same amount of teachers, two do more work. The resources previously allocated two Propel average students into great students has been redirected to educate illegal immigrant children how to speak English. My wife and daughters have classroom sizes that exceed the previous limits. They are working with no support staff in some cases. They have illegal immigrant children taking up space in their classrooms, unable to speak English, just sitting there all day. My wife has for special needs immigrant children who has behavioral issues. They are getting free help from the state comma when they bother to show for it. The parents are afraid they're going to be deported and so often times they will not show up. So the kids go untreated, without their medication, without their proper support, disrupting the class, keeping average students from becoming excellent students. So don't tell me that this is not reality, because it is. You have no freaking idea what you're talking about and you should not open your mouth to address these issues until you've lived it yourself. I can tell you firsthand that teachers in our schools go home every day wishing they could quit. They no longer enjoy what they do. This lack of joy is translated into the quality of Education. The American kids see no need to better themselves when they are not going to get the help they need themselves. And I can tell you this, it is driving a wedge between white and black American kids and the immigrants coming in from other nations. These immigrant children are being perceived as substandard inconveniences. I can also tell you that there will be a big cultural divide because the school systems are beginning to build schools specifically for these kids. So we will have even more Haves and Have Nots. If there was a way to block you, I would because the crap coming out of your brain is so absurd it's not even funny.

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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by brent » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:37 am

By the way, I spoke into my phone while driving so if there are any spelling or grammatical errors, it is because my phone types with the speech impediment.

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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by curt » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:38 pm

If you had read more than the first paragraph, you would have seen that I was not only talking about the USA but also Europe. As a consequence most of you assumptions are wrong.

I dislike the "you don't know what you are talking about" approach for quite many reasons. What I was adressing was a moral question and I don't think there are borders to where ethics apply. I don't think it is unfair to discuss different values or views of life in different countries in which you don't live or in historical periods in which you don't live. Many of you have held oppinions on what is going on in Germany and Sweden. That's fair and as it should be. However it contradicts your claim that I somehow cannot hold an oppinion on what is going on in a country in which I don't live.

You do mention some problems that are important. And as I have pointed out there are important problems in some parts of Europe too. However I don't see why there should only be only one solution to those problems. Even a solution that would have very severe consequences for the poorest and those in the severest need. There are numerous other ways it could be handled and it is being discussed in Europe quite often. I too fear a cultural divide. However i see nothing in your writings that would work as a bridging of the problems. You seem to only want to adress it in order to reach one specific conlusion. However I don't see that as the only possible solution.

And by the way there is really no need to get personal and try to attack my person. I think it is interesting to discuss this stuff and I liked the fact that the zone had gotten a more friendly tone recently. I think discussion is what keeps the brain going and I like to read the oppinions of people with whom i disagree. It makes sure you don't get stuck mentally.

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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by Mountain Man » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:39 pm

brent wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:26 pm
So many people are saying we should do the Christian thing and let everyone in our life boat. I think "doing the Christian thing" is one dimensional. We are to do good by those wanting in and screw those already here. Sounds like history repeating itself.
An analogy I like to use is, would you put your family at risk by letting just anybody into your house? I wouldn't, and I don't think the Christian ethic demands it. Jesus called us to be charitable, not reckless.

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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by curt » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:09 pm

But again we are not talking about everyone or anybody so the analogy misses the point. And it even seems to presuppose that quite many of those who are in need are evil or dangerous. I do not think such an assumption is fair. It is very generalizing. It seems more to the point to imagine that you were one of them. In that case your oppinion would likely change.

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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by Mountain Man » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:25 am

curt wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:09 pm
...it even seems to presuppose that quite many of those who are in need are evil or dangerous.
No it doesn't. A story my pastor once told:

One day a man approached my pastor and asked if he could borrow $20, saying he was in need of money. My pastor said no. The man became indignant and said, "What's the matter? Don't you trust me?" My pastor said, "I don't even know you!"

The way some people act, my pastor should have handed over the $20 without question because that would have been "loving". I, on the other hand, would call that poor stewardship. If someone approaches me on the street and asks for money because they're hungry, I'll offer to buy them some food instead. You might be surprised how many times people turn me down.

My point is simply this: Christians have limited resources, and it is our responsibility to use discretion to ensure that those resources are used to do the most good. Sometimes that means putting you and your family first.

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Re: Theological advice from unlikely sources.

Post by curt » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:39 am

Mountain Man wrote:
Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:25 am
My point is simply this: Christians have limited resources, and it is our responsibility to use discretion to ensure that those resources are used to do the most good. Sometimes that means putting you and your family first.
I just wonder how one could justify the claim that the resources are used to do the most good by not sharing e.g. with the refugees from Syria.
I have no doubt that if we were in their situation, we would agree that we should share to a much larger degree. Compared to them our problems are minor though they are not unimportant. If this is not a time in which we should focus on those in need I hardly dare image the situations in which we should.

I feel a bit uneasy about the fact that you are trying to put a Christian justification on putting yourself first. You have not convinced me but I'd be interested in reading your arguments on that.

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