BTTR Must Be Selling Well

[SCJ-7]

We are...

[p-freak]

8th Commandment. Thou Shalt Not Steal

That is not a US only law, that is the law of God. Stealing is stealing no matter how you look at it. If you are taking away from someone's living against their will, you are in fact stealing from them. Regardless if your country suports it or not, stealing is stealing in God's eyes.

Here is the thing. It's not your job to tell the artist that their music should be free, it's not your job to make it free or get it free. Sin is sin and regardless of what you feel should be free or not, to take something againsts the will of someone else just because you think it should be the way you want it is wrong and is against the Bible. Thou Shalt Not Steal is the same in every country, by GOD's Law not man's law.

"Thou Shalt Not Steal" was in the World long before there ever was a United States of America and long before there was ever a Me and You. Man says there are grey areas to the Law because they look for reasons to get around the Laws, but God isn't going to judge by opinions.

If you look at the 10 Commandments, you see an index of laws. Everything is covered under the law, the Bible says, there is nothing new under the sun. So that little copywright law you said we should re-write in the Bible, it was there before you were even born, it's called "Thou Shalt Not Steal"

You are right that stealing is stealing, but it remains a matter of opinion (and not God-given commandments) if downloading music is indeed stealing. I disagree with your interpretation, but I think that was already fairly obvious.

Just because I planted a tree, it's not stealing if someone else eats the fruits or sits in the shade.

You're never going to convince me, I'm never going to convince you. I respect your opinion, even though I strongly disagree with parts of your interpretation. Please respect my opinion as well and leave the judge to Someone who knows a whole lot more about this stuff than we do.

[Preacherman777]

Just because I planted a tree, it's not stealing if someone else eats the fruits or sits in the shade.

It is if you trespass someone else's property to do it. Heck, that's what St. Augustine's Pears is about.

[brent]

If stealing is wrong, and it is, why isn't receiving something you have not paid not stealing/wrong? If you are paying to file "share", then how is that not paying for stolen goods?

btw:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1828922520101118

[bakersfieldpethead]

Please respect my opinion as well and leave the judge to Someone who knows a whole lot more about this stuff than we do.

I don't respect anyone that's does something like this, I and others make our living doing the same thing. It is wrong, and not your place to say it is right when people like us work our butts of putting our music out. It's not about making it rich, it's about making a living on what we do.

I dare you to have this debate with the artists you've downloaded music of. It hurts people, it's stealing and it's a sin!!! It's not just my opinion. It's not just a US thing, U2 is against it, many artists World Wide are against it, regardless of your countries laws. I don't have respect for anyone that does this sort of thing.

I don't care if I ever convince you. All I can do is pray that God will have his way in the matter.

[sickasadog]

In Canada, it is not illegal to download copyrighted music at the moment. The Canadian gov't, however, is developing new intellectual property and copyright laws to tighten it up again.

Even under the new statutes though, one can make digital copies of purchased works for personal use.

Many people I know do not illegally download music because, although not illegal, they consider it immoral.

[executioner]

8th Commandment. Thou Shalt Not Steal

That is not a US only law, that is the law of God. Stealing is stealing no matter how you look at it. If you are taking away from someone's living against their will, you are in fact stealing from them. Regardless if your country suports it or not, stealing is stealing in God's eyes.

Here is the thing. It's not your job to tell the artist that their music should be free, it's not your job to make it free or get it free. Sin is sin and regardless of what you feel should be free or not, to take something againsts the will of someone else just because you think it should be the way you want it is wrong and is against the Bible. Thou Shalt Not Steal is the same in every country, by GOD's Law not man's law.

"Thou Shalt Not Steal" was in the World long before there ever was a United States of America and long before there was ever a Me and You. Man says there are grey areas to the Law because they look for reasons to get around the Laws, but God isn't going to judge by opinions.

If you look at the 10 Commandments, you see an index of laws. Everything is covered under the law, the Bible says, there is nothing new under the sun. So that little copywright law you said we should re-write in the Bible, it was there before you were even born, it's called "Thou Shalt Not Steal"

You are right that stealing is stealing, but it remains a matter of opinion (and not God-given commandments) if downloading music is indeed stealing. I disagree with your interpretation, but I think that was already fairly obvious.

Just because I planted a tree, it's not stealing if someone else eats the fruits or sits in the shade.

You're never going to convince me, I'm never going to convince you. I respect your opinion, even though I strongly disagree with parts of your interpretation. Please respect my opinion as well and leave the judge to Someone who knows a whole lot more about this stuff than we do.

Too me it shows you have no respect for anyone else's possessions, so I guess it would be ok for someone to come and take something that you've drew blood and sweat over and actually in God's Eyes rightfully own?
Why don't you email Bob and see how he would feel if you decided to take one of his songs for free.

[rexreed]

Cmon guys, Pfreak already explained that just because he can download music illegally, he doesn't. Dutch laws are typically going to seem a little left of US laws but ours seem pretty left to most middle eastern countries. Even if you go by Dutch law no one should have access to BTTR unless they pay for it since it just came out. Anyone that does would not have an original copy so Petra and all other artists are protected. Of course there are a lot of people that download the music anyway, but we have that problem in the states too. I remember about 7 years ago when most people saw nothing wrong with p2p networks. Bands like Metallica took popularity hits because they spoke out against it. Well fast forward to now with itunes, emusic, walmart, etc firmly in place there are a lot more people who choose to buy the music rather than steal it.

I guess I'm just trying to say something along the lines of "stop dissing The Netherlands." We get pretty defensive about US criticism so I can understand his objection to our Dutch rants.

[bakersfieldpethead]

I guess I'm just trying to say something along the lines of "stop dissing The Netherlands." We get pretty defensive about US criticism so I can understand his objection to our Dutch rants.

I don't think I said anything against your Country. I said something against people who download music without buying it. That's good that he's going to buy it instead of downloading it free. My argument is stealing is stealing. And if you can't walk into a store and grab a CD off the shelf becuase you already own the album in a different format then you shouldn't be able to download the album for free just because you own it in a different format. MP3 is an audio format, just because it's on a computer makes no difference, it's still the same recording. Get over it and pay the money.

Maybe someone should walk into a Computer Store and grab a Laptop off the shelf and walk out with it, and just tell them, it's ok it's free for me I own a PC, there's nothing wrong with it.

[separateunion]

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY!!!!

But God, who are YOU to tell me what to do. I live in the Netherlands. It's legal here!

Ah yes, that's true. I forgot that copyright laws, made up by silly humans who need to protect each other from ripping each other off, were actually instituted by God and are part of the Ten Commandments. You will need to rewrite your Bible here to squeeze US copyright laws into it. As I said earlier, US law is not a moral compass.

Art should be free for anyone to enjoy. This does not mean that this would equal a license to download anything. Copyright originally was invented to help artists make a living. But nowadays it's more about filling the pockets of the extremely rich corporate individuals than it's about protecting poor creative people. It's gone completely renegade.

I've tried to take a reasonable position here by explaining the way copyrights work here and all I get are silly comments like the one I just quoted that totally miss the point. If you would have said something like: maybe Dutch copyright laws aren't the best in the world, then I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But still, in the Netherlands I have to comply to Dutch laws and in the USA you have to comply to American laws. And your assumption that I would ignore any Biblical commandment, just because in my country copyright laws (that are not a Biblical commandment) are different than in your country, is just totally silly.

Please give a more intelligent reply.

I 100% agree with this. I don't believe that "illegally" downloading digital music is a black and white issue. It's not comparable to having my cabinets stolen because I cannot replace those cabinets. It's not like anyone is walking into the studio and stealing the original masters. If my cabinets are stolen, I have to do the labor of reproducing all of the cabinets that were stolen. The artist doesn't have to reproduce anything once the original production has been completed. This is why "intellectual properties" are a tough cookie to define as private. It's not tangible in the same way that my car, my house or my iPod are.

And, as p-freak said, US law is not a moral compass. Not to mention that "illegal" downloading sure does thrive for being illegal.

[bakersfieldpethead]

SU it's an audio format. It's the same as walking into a store and grabbing a CD off the shelf and walking out with it saying "Oh I own the Cassette or the LP so it's ok" you would be locked up for it. mp3 or any other audio format is no different.

Might as well go into a candy store and grab a candy bar and walk out and tell them it's ok, I bought one 10 years ago.
People put their life into that music, a lot of hours, a lot of money and deserve to make their money back. You are not the only who is stealing it the World is full of people who are doing this so the argument of "They won't know the difference" dosn't apply because those are sales that could have been made to further the artists career or ministry.

I wonder how many people ripped off J&H. If they had purchased the CD instead, Petra might have not retired, the sales might have went through the roof.

[separateunion]

SU it's an audio format. It's the same as walking into a store and grabbing a CD off the shelf and walking out with it saying "Oh I own the Cassette or the LP so it's ok" you would be locked up for it. mp3 or any other audio format is no different.

I disagree. And even if you hold to that, you're not really ripping off the artist, which is what most of you have been claiming. You're ripping off the distributor and the store it's being sold in. Now, this could indirectly effect the artist, but it is not the same as stealing the actual product they produced. You can't compare it to something like stealing cabinets.

[bakersfieldpethead]

So just because it's on a computer and is a digital file, you think it makes a difference. hmmm so mp3 is not an audio format? When you look at a list of audio formats, it will start with the wire or LP and go down the list and mp3 will be on that list. mp3 is a digital audio format designed for use of audio playback on a computer. When you buy an album it only gives you the right to listen to that album, you do not own the rights to that album, you do not own the right to distribute that album, and unless you have a retail licens you have no right to sale that album in a store.

When someone records, produces and distributes music, it is theirs 100% to do so. Unless you are owner or part owner of that project it isn't your right to freely distribute it, you only have a copy you don't own any rights to anything. Taking something that dosn't belong to you is stealing according the Bible.

[separateunion]

When someone records, produces and distributes music, it is theirs 100% to do so. Unless you are owner or part owner of that project it isn't your right to freely distribute it, you only have a copy you don't own any rights to anything. Taking something that dosn't belong to you is stealing according the Bible.

As I've already stated, "intellectual property rights" is a fuzzy area. It's not black and white. Just because you or the US government says it's stealing doesn't make it so.

[bakersfieldpethead]

The US goverment didn't make this law on their own. The Artists, The Record companies and those in the buisness have requested that. It's the will of the artists, not just the US, but those artists that are in other countries as well. Just because your country says it's ok, dosn't mean it is.