Just wanted to point out

[Dan]

I was under the impression that the reason the US dates were taking a while to show up was because they are doing all the other countries first.. and that takes time.

[BForm]

Less than 2% of the average church tithes. There is a record number of churches in financial ruin because of unbiblical debt. TV ministries are cutting back. Someone has to think out of the box.

Brent, I'm curious where your numbers are coming from on churches in financial ruin. I've been wondering when this was going to start happening. I'm hearing about churches in the Atlanta area that have cut salaries back so far it's no longer a livable wage. Outreach budgets are being cut and events that had become a community tradition have begun to disappear. I havent seen churches foreclose yet but it can't be far off.

Churches that find themselves needing to cut their....um.....entertainment budgets are really in a quandry. As one author once said it, "churches that build using the 'six flags over Jesus' model soon find out that the amusement park must stay open."

[Tutor23]

Daniel: I don't think todays youth could handle Petra lyrics, to biblical for them.

You got THAT right.

imc - nicely played!

[petraman]

John might not be tearing up the tour schedule but he seems happy!

[brent]

Barna and others have survey data.

[CatNamedManny]

Here's a Barna survey on church finances from a year ago. Kind of a mixed bag. Small churches actually have experienced bigger drops in their budgets on a percentage basis, but the leaders of larger congregations are more likely to say they've been significantly affected by the recession.

Regarding tithing, Barna reported 7 percent of all adults "tithe" (i.e., give 10 percent of their income to nonprofits), including 11 percent of churchgoers and 24 percent of evangelicals.

[BForm]

Yeah, I read the same report. That was a little more positive. From experience, I think the reason why a decrease in charitable giving is more difficult on larger churches is because they are so heavily financed. A number of churches in this area built enormous buildings just prior to the economic crisis using credit and justifying it based on large community growth projections. They didn't account for the fact that much of the growth was Korean, Romanian, and Indian. People are moving in but they're either building their own churches or going to a Hindu temple. So much for speculation.

[brent]

The reports we purchased were for comparable metro areas like ours in the mid-west. That is where I got the 2% average. This was post recession. Well...Obama recession, not Bush.

In all fairness, there are some denominations and churches that do not preach the tithe or regular giving, and are supported by reparations or outside funding.

I tried to get Barna to come up with some data about Christians, music, purchasing vs stealing vs paying for downloading....no dice.

[BForm]

Brent, the reason why it was "no dice" is because the subject matter would not help them sell one of their books. From watching them over the past few years, their research seems to be just a part of their marketing plan. Show people how bad things are, then here's the book that will help. I don't have a lot of confidence in Barna.

[Tutor23]

Less than 2% of the average church tithes. There is a record number of churches in financial ruin because of unbiblical debt. TV ministries are cutting back. Someone has to think out of the box.

I havent seen churches foreclose yet but it can't be far off.

As one author once said it, "churches that build using the 'six flags over Jesus' model soon find out that the amusement park must stay open."

I am a member of one of the 10 largest U.S. churches. Biblical preaching, sound doctrine, fiscal responsibility, discipleship opportunities. We recently made our final payment on our main building. No debt. Although church income has dropped in this bad economy (not to mention the President's initiative soon after he took office to dramatically cut deductibility of larger charitable contributions), we are doing OK because we aren't burdened by unbiblical debt.

I do agree that there are many large churches that have grown too quickly and for the wrong reasons. Debt and the "seeker friendly" entertainment mentality has built these megachurches on a rotten foundation. The church leaders are too afraid to rock the boat and challenge their "giving members" for fear of not being able to pay the monthly bills. This has them hamstrung. Houses built on sand surely will not stand.

Andy

[CatNamedManny]

(not to mention the President's initiative soon after he took office to dramatically cut deductibility of larger charitable contributions)

Maybe I'm missing something (always possible), but that proposal never took effect. As proposed, it wouldn't have taken effect until 2011 anyway. He's proposing it again as part of his budget this year. For what it's worth, despite similar worries when Ronald Reagan signed a similar measure in the 1980s, overall giving did not drop.