Answer this Greg Volz question

[Shell]

There is a place to deal with sin. But it shouldn't be done on a message board, by people who don't know all the circumstances. That's what church families are for. That's why I had such a problem with this thread. There's no constructive reason why the general public should have to know all their business, and like Brent said, just because it isn't announced in the news doesn't mean sin isn't being dealt with. Anyone who claims to be representing Jesus, whether they're in the public spotlight or not, is ministering or should be ministering to people who don't claim to be Christians, so we should be sure we're following the standards we're holding Christian artists to. Is it possible that part of the reason these folks might "sweep things under the rug" is because they have to deal with a public that tends to expect from them what they don't do themselves? I don't condone that attitude, but I can understand why it happens.

[charl]

The thing I'm finding interesting is that unlost did start another thread in the off topic forum to discuss this issue in general. There are no replies. If it is inappropriate to speak of a specific person, why not go and air your feelings about the issue out over there? It will help discussion flow, as you won't have every second post saying 'it's none of your business.'

That thread is overhere.

[executioner]

[quote="AlwaysJohnLawryFan"]You shouldn't worry about how Greg house is in order. Us christians should worry about our own.

To be nosy and getting into people's business is not how we should as christians. It is not christ like. Ok how would you like if I get nosy about all of your business? Wouldn't like it too much would you? Who are you to throw stones?[/quo

I'm NOT throwing any stones; All I'm saying is that a CCM artist should not expect for me or any other Christian to support his/her ministry if there are things that are questionable. I've never come on here and asked any personal questions about any artist and will not do that in the future, but what I am trying to say is the these CCM artist are held to a higher standard NOT by me but by GOD. Paul specially talks about this in the Bible. If I so choose to know the personal business about someone like Greg, John, Bob or anyone else I will approach that person on a one-on-one level.

[executioner]

I'm sorry but Brent and AJLF are showing with every post they make that they do not understand the scriptures where it comes to this issue.

Well said!

[unlost]

I appreciate themoderators leaving this forum posting open & it looks like it has become really popular.....
I have emailed Becky Britton-Volz a while back, just to say "hi" and didn't get a response. That made me think maybe her email is changed. But anyway, let's get back to the can of worms I opened.
Many of you are still saying not to deal with the problem, or let someone else deal with it.
Do you mean to say that if we see another dozen christian musicians get divorced in the next few years we should just say "oh, well" ????

When do you apply accountability? Do you also ignore sexual sins of those in your church using the same reasoning?
How about youth leaders?

Would your pastors think we should just nevermind christians getting divorced?

At least we can pray for CCM marriages instead of being guilty of giving others a license to sin by disregarding the issue.
At minimum we should speak out against divorce.
Stop justifying sin.
Yes I believe in mercy for the people who have experienced divorce. But please-NO MORE excuses for our hardened hearts. The fact that many of us in this forum don't want to deal with it proves to me that we are willing to accept something less glorious than God's will!

[calicowriter]

I agree that if you feel something a particluar artist says or does offends you or your perception of biblical behavior, you shouldn't support said artist. However, I do have a problem with wanting to know details of someone's transgressions (real or perceived), especially if you do not even know the person personally. How do you know whether or not Amy, Greg, Sandi, etc received counseling or discipline from their church bodies? I remember that at a church I attended in Louisville, the music minister publicly announced that he had been a hypocrite and had been sinning and was stepping down until or if he could be restored. Apparently he put himslef under the authority of the elders of the church, and repented, received counseling and prayers. At no time did the church leaders feel it necessary to tell the body at large what the trangression was, although it did eventually get out. He was addicted to internet pornography. After six months, he was restored to his position, and was a very grateful and humble man for the experience. This was a beautiful example of how the body of Christ is to treat and restore one of its own.

I don't know anything about Amy or Greg's history, but I have heard Sandi Patti tell how her church did pretty much the same thing. They way I remember the scriptures it says ALL have sinned and fallen short.

I read in one of Sue's interviews with John where he said he no longer tried to act like "God's policeman" anymore because God had slapped his hand over it. I think that would be good advice for all.

[unlost]

"Do not judge" is a very sly way of not dealing with controversy. Do we realize that by leaving a tough issue alone you are in fact making the judgement that it is irrelevant?
Praise God for those that have the guts to own up to their own actions and shame on us for endorsing otherwise.

[executioner]

I agree that if you feel something a particluar artist says or does offends you or your perception of biblical behavior, you shouldn't support said artist. However, I do have a problem with wanting to know details of someone's transgressions (real or perceived), especially if you do not even know the person personally. How do you know whether or not Amy, Greg, Sandi, etc received counseling or discipline from their church bodies? I remember that at a church I attended in Louisville, the music minister publicly announced that he had been a hypocrite and had been sinning and was stepping down until or if he could be restored. Apparently he put himslef under the authority of the elders of the church, and repented, received counseling and prayers. At no time did the church leaders feel it necessary to tell the body at large what the trangression was, although it did eventually get out. He was addicted to internet pornography. After six months, he was restored to his position, and was a very grateful and humble man for the experience. This was a beautiful example of how the body of Christ is to treat and restore one of its own.

I don't know anything about Amy or Greg's history, but I have heard Sandi Patti tell how her church did pretty much the same thing. They way I remember the scriptures it says ALL have sinned and fallen short.

I read in one of Sue's interviews with John where he said he no longer tried to act like "God's policeman" anymore because God had slapped his hand over it. I think that would be good advice for all.

That is somewhat what I am trying to say. I think the restortation part is the key. I have a very forgiving heart, but I would think twice about supporting a ministry again, or until I see the fruits.

[brent]

OK Preacher boyz. Bring it on.

1. My father was a pastor. Our family was basically black balled, because my dad gave into temptation and messed up. He received nothing but condemnation. I have lived in the wrath of the legalistic judgement that is so hypocrital that it makes me vommit. I gave up on organized church for a long time. It is a joke. "Come as you are and accept Christ. But if we catch you sinning again, you are out! BTW, my sins aren't as bad as so & so's!"

2. All sin is sin. Doesn't matter what it is. There is none greater than the other. All of the wages are death. All have differing consequences. All hinder our relationship with God. None will separate. Jesus said that nothing can pluck us out of his hand. To assume that a sin could alienate you from Christ means that sin is a greater thing than the blood of Christ.

3. All forgiveness comes from the Father. As humans, we are to be living out the will of the Father. If we cannot reconcile sins with one another, then we suck as Christians.

4. I am sick of the "thou should not judge crap." Totally unscriptural. Totally out of context. We ARE to judge what is right in the light of scripture. We are to discern the spirits of men. We are to delight in the balance of the law/justice. We are NOT to condem. Very different.

5. What some of you "Christians" are doing is getting that mixed up. You do not know the people's hearts who have been divorced. You can't fix them. You can't hold them any more accountable than they can hold you. You should pick the splinter out of your eye first. You are not above God. Let God do his perfect work, and lay down your stones.

6. Of course we should not accept divorce. What a moronic statement. But we should not accept it for ourselves. You can't just blanket statement things. You do not know the real poop that happens off stage, even in your favorite bands that walk on water.

My brother is an example where even Gary Smalley himself told my brother that his wife was beyond hope. She married for all of the wrong reasons. Everyone around them knew it. She lived a double life. My brother fought to do the right thing. His wife did not love him, and never did. She couldn't have sex with him because she knew that she didn't love him. They tried everything. She was a nutcase, and was making him one as well. It was no fault of his. He did all that he could. They divorced. Is it a perfect solution? No. Was it needed? Well, it saved her from commiting adultary, kept them both from living a lie and both being miserable. Was it God's will? I doubt it. Was it good for them. Yes!

I know ladies that were saved, married to guys that said they were, but lived like hell. Both of them drug addicts, beat their sposes, freaked out the kids, etc. One guy got his life together and is stidying to be a pastor. The one that did not straighten up continued to live out the rage in the home. His wife divorced him after too many Police visits and wise counseling from the law. Good freakin riddens! I don't know if the looser is still alive. I doubt it if he is not in prison. Is divorce perfect? Nope. If you have unwilling participants in abuse, then it is a good, lawful step to protection.

I know that one of the guys in the band Lamb would go out on little tours, come home and beat the crap out of his wife. Great testimony. Guess what people around her told her. Divorce is of the devil. She was really healthy.

If a person is unfaithful, then technically, the other person has grounds for divorce. There was just cause in many of the situations that were originally in question. Drop it.

[unlost]

I appreciate the "bring it on". I'm going to suggest that we use God's word as the standard and only permit divorce when adultery is committed. Otherwise I say we don't allow ourselves to draw a line in the sand and say if my spouse crosses that line I'm outta here. Clearly that is what many in the church have done.
Break the chain instead of breaking hearts.

[BeReady]

OK Preacher boyz. Bring it on.

I can't respond for everyone, but here is this "preacher boyz'" response.

1. My father was a pastor. Our family was basically black balled, because my dad gave into temptation and messed up. He received nothing but condemnation. I have lived in the wrath of the legalistic judgement that is so hypocrital that it makes me vommit. I gave up on organized church for a long time. It is a joke. "Come as you are and accept Christ. But if we catch you sinning again, you are out! BTW, my sins aren't as bad as so & so's!"

I'm sorry for the way the church treated your father. It is an unfortunate but true saying that "Christians are the only army that shoots it's wounded." I cannot defend their actions and I won't try, neither will I try to rationalize them away. I can only say I'm sorry for what you went through, and I pray my kids never have to go through what you did.

2. All sin is sin. Doesn't matter what it is. There is none greater than the other. All of the wages are death. All have differing consequences. All hinder our relationship with God. None will separate. Jesus said that nothing can pluck us out of his hand. To assume that a sin could alienate you from Christ means that sin is a greater thing than the blood of Christ.

You say, "All sin is sin. . .there is none greater than the other." Then you go on to say "all have differing consequences." I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, could you please clarify? I would also agree that there is no sin greater than the blood of Christ.

3. All forgiveness comes from the Father. As humans, we are to be living out the will of the Father. If we cannot reconcile sins with one another, then we suck as Christians.

4. I am sick of the "thou should not judge crap." Totally unscriptural. Totally out of context. We ARE to judge what is right in the light of scripture. We are to discern the spirits of men. We are to delight in the balance of the law/justice. We are NOT to condem. Very different.

I agree.

5. What some of you "Christians" are doing is getting that mixed up. You do not know the people's hearts who have been divorced. You can't fix them. You can't hold them any more accountable than they can hold you. You should pick the splinter out of your eye first. You are not above God. Let God do his perfect work, and lay down your stones.

I am not trying to see into the hearts of individuals. Nor am I trying to judge them. I would just like an explanation from divorced individuals in public ministry. Now you and I disagree on the issue of whether or not a Christian artist is a minister. I think we may have to agree to disagree on this issue. But because I do equate the two, I would prefer to have an explanation. Just as I would like to have an explanation from a divorced person wishing to serve as a minister in my church. See my post below for my additional thoughts on this matter.

6. Of course we should not accept divorce. What a moronic statement. But we should not accept it for ourselves. You can't just blanket statement things. You do not know the real poop that happens off stage, even in your favorite bands that walk on water.

I agree.

Guess what people around her told her. Divorce is of the devil. She was really healthy.

There are times when a divorce is warranted and justified. You cite some good examples in your above quotes.

If a person is unfaithful, then technically, the other person has grounds for divorce.

I agree.

There was just cause in many of the situations that were originally in question. Drop it.

The best way to "drop it" would be for people who are troubled by this topic to stop posting (please note, I'm not saying people who disagree with me shouldn't post, I'm simply saying, if this discussion is troubling you, stay away from it). But it seems like many of us are guilty of the sin of "wanting to have the last word." As you can see from my posts below that I am guilty as charged. My confession and public repentance of this sin will be forthcoming.

[BeReady]

Okay, here are a few additional observations for your consideration. First of all, I think many of us are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. It seems like we have a fundamental disagreement on the nature of the work of a Christian artist. Some of us feel that "Christian artist" is an occupation just like anybody else's--ditch-digger, lawyer, accountant, food service, etc. Other's feel that a "Christian artist" is a type of minister, and as such needs to be held accountable to the biblical standards for a minister. As long as we disagree on this, we will never agree on the other issues being discussed here. And I'm not saying that we have to agree on this issue. Christians should be free to disagree on this subject and debate it.

Second, whether we like it or not, divorce is a public sin. Our local newspaper has a "legal" section that lists all of the divorces granted in our county over the past month. If I so desired, I could go up to the county courthouse, fill out a bunch of paperwork and request to see a copy of any divorce decree on record. And unless that decree has been sealed by a judge, it is perfectly legal for me to do so. That decree would list the reason for the divorce granted, as well as child custody and property issues. Now, I have never done this, and I probably never will do this. But it is legal. It is public information. For that matter, if I wanted to pay enough money, I could obtain the same information through one of the "background check" services on the internet. This information is a matter of public record. There is nothing malicious or "gossipy" about seeking information that is available to the public.

Third, since I believe a "Christian Artist" is a minister and since the details of a decree are a matter of public record, I think it is in the artist/minister's best interest to disclose, at least, the legal reason for the divorce. If the divorce is biblical and the artist/minister is the innocent party, then nothing more needs to be said. If the divorce is not biblical or the artist/minister is the offending party, then it would be appropriate for the artist/minister to include a statement that he/she has confessed and repented of his/her sin in the matter. I don't need to know or want to know all of the sleazy details of the divorce, nor do I need a step by step description of his repentance. I just want to know if the divorce was biblical, and if not, that the artist/minister has acknowledged their sin and repented before God. That's it.

Fourth, I do not believe that a Christian artist/minister is obligated to do this. I merely think that it is in their best interest to do so. However, if an artist/minister absolutely refused to do this, I would seriously have to consider whether or not I could support their ministry.

Fifth and finally, I do not believe that a divorce is the "unforgivable sin." I do not believe that a divorce disqualifies anyone from any position in the church as long as any one of the following three conditions apply--1. The divorce occurred before the person became a Christian; 2. The divorce was biblical and the person in question was the innocent party; 3. If the person was the offending party, he/she has confessed their sin and exhibited the fruit of repentance to a local body of the church.

PS. Let me also say that I realize some of you on this forum have experienced the pain of divorce in your own life. I hurt for you. Though I have never been divorced, I do remember very vividly the pain and disruption my parent's divorce caused in our lives when I was 14. And as a Pastor I have counseled with too many couples who have experienced this tragedy in their lives. I see the pain of divorce reflected in the faces of my congregation just about every Sunday. In no way do I wish to insinuate that Christians who suffer divorce are somehow tainted Christians. Nor do I think divorce is a scarlet letter that one must wear in shame for the rest of their life. To the contrary, if a divorce is handled biblically, it can turn into a testimony of the remarkable forgiveness and grace found in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Next

[brent]

All sin is equally to die for. But, sins do not have the same social or economic consequences. A lie about stealing a cookie is nt as grievous as adultery. The domino effect of all of affair will effect many outside of the affair. It may have long lasting effects (divorce, STDs, etc) that a simple lie would not have.

Yes, I see artists as what they are...artists. Some people greet at Wal Mart, some build buildings, some pick their nose and milk the system. An artist is an artist is an artist. If it is something that is done for a living, then they are full time artists. Nothing more, nothing less. If they are Christians, then they are the same as a Christian plumber, brick layer, etc. That's my view. I think that scripture backs it up. There are church leadership people, and non leadership people. Since there is no office of band ordained by God, then I would lump it in the non church leadership catagory.

It is the public that made bands like Petra more than what they really are. They are a bunch of Christians playing their music of choice, singing lyrics about Christ. They are not a church, denomination, nor have they been ordained by one, sent out into the mission field. They did it for money. Yes they had fruit. But when the money dried up, they quit. Plain and simple. Petra were musical greeters to the only thing Wal Mart can't buy. People get tired of seeing their face, hearing the greeting, and kicked them to the curb.

People have over blown Petra's (and other CCM artists) place and function, that they have voiced their opinion incorrectly, that it can't be God's will for them to quit. With all due respect, God doesn't drop money from heaven. We are in the world. We have to operate under Gods laws that he established. One of those is working (thanks alot Adam and Eve...NOT!) and earning your wages. If you can't do that then you cannot take care of the family (sin), cannot tithe from your increase (sin), etc....

If it was all about ministry, then none of these bands would ever quit. But it is not about receiving ministry on the consumer's end. No matter what, artists days are numbered, because consumers age, styles change, etc. It is about entertainment primarilly. Nothing wrong with that.

It isn't just music. It is "the laughter movement", the "Brownsville Revivals", etc, etc. People get tired fast, and want the next new thing. People hop churches, loyalty to pastors, etc because they are carnal and spiritually retarded.

The best ministers won't know what good they have done, until they hit Heaven's gates. They were busy living as a walking bible for all to read, extending the hand of love and grace, in a way that inspires thought and draws them in, just as Christ did. It will not be the pastors, teachers, etc. Lost people do't seek them out. They watch US, to see what we will do. So how are we more or less accountable?

[Brent-Edward Handy]

Edward has gone.

Brent is back ho ho ha ha

[Preacherman777]

First of all, I must say that BeReady gave an excellent response. There really isn't much I could add to it and I agree with all of it. I'm sorry to see that after Brent made this big challenge, he opted to not really address the points that BeReady has made. The one thing he did address is whether or not Christian artists should be held as ministers or teachers.

I do not agree that this is something totally applied to them by the fans. Yes, the fans do have a part in that and perhaps to much so at times, but it is most often the artist's themselves who presume to get up there and attempt to teach or minister the gospel through their music. Petra for example has done this more than most bands out there. In James 3:1 it says and I quote

Not many of you should presume to teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Now, Brent wants to put all Christian artists in the same league as say a Christian plumber. Ok, let's say a Christian plumber, while out there on the job is telling his customers about Jesus and teaching them that life in Christ, is life more abundant and free. (I just happen to know a plumber who does this) Let's say that God is blessing his efforts and he is winning converts and these people keep using his service, because they like the message of hope he brings them. He is ministering to many hurting people, people facing marriages on the brink of destruction among other things and he's telling them there is hope in Christ.

Then, one day it comes out that he has asked his wife for a divorce and his customers begin to ask him what's happened. Why didn't your faith work in this situation? His response is simply that he had to do what was right for him in this situation and there is nothing more that anyone needs to know about it. Eventually, word gets out as it usually does, and truth is revealed that he divorced his wife because she had gained too much weight and he didn't find her attractive anymore.

What does this do to his ministry if he is never willing to own up to his error?