2 Guys tour dates

[BForm]

And might I add that when the foolish and unimpressive things are used to build the kingdom, God is the one who get's the glory for the growth. Not our talent, not our impressive programs, not our professional modern looking buildings, not our smooth or commanding speech but just the Word of God empowered by the Spirit of God. I sometimes wonder how many crackly, shaky voiced preachers will be way up in front in the kingdom where all the flashy, cool, hip modern day King Saul "Dynamic Speakers" expect to be.

I wonder if a modern paraphrase of I Cor. 1:26 might read "...not many wise, not many noble, not many rock stars, not many professionnal athletes, not many marketing geniuses are called." But God really has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty.......that no flesh should glory in His presence.

[BForm]

O.K. I have to clarify something else. I'm not putting John down for being a "rock star". I believe he really is a humble servant of God. I'm simply saying big time talent is not ultimately what builds God's kingdom. Paul said he counted his fleshly accomplishments as rubbish, that God worked through his weeknesses, not his fleshly strengths. Remember how he spoke in Corinth with a quivering voice? And how he said he did not come with "smooth persuasive speech"?

In contrast, how many times have you heard another Christian say, "If _______ (fill in the blank with an impressive personality) could just get saved, just imagine how many people would come to Christ through their ministry." Here in the Atlanta area everyone wants to see guys like John Smoltz speak at their church because they thing people will respond to the Gospel when presented by men like this, even though they might ignore the godly school janitor. This is totally unscriptural thinking when you look at 1 Cor chapter 2, or even Jesus' choosing of the disciples. We've got to stop thinking like the world when trying to build the kingdom.

[brent]

Wow, the promoter takes the risk because we charge tickets? We have to charge tickets because the Artist is CHARGING us $3,000-$5,000 for 1 night. If that wasn't the case then we would be in a whole new world. Take Greg X Volz for instance he does services all the time for love offerings. As a promoter I will assume the responsibility and pay ALL his expenses. The artist then takes the risk and trusts that people follow their heart,God, etc and give to them. This is done by missionaries, evangelists, teachers, pastors all over the world but an Artist/ministry is expected to have their expenses paid for and every wish they have in a rider plus get another $1000-25000. This is the system man has built. There is ABSOLUTELY no risk on the artists part once the contract is signed other than an act of God or sickness and even in the cases they usually keep the deposit and the promoter is stiffed for that bill plus any other money that has been spent up to that point on promotion, venue deposits, etc. The promoter is legally on the hook for everything. If there is a promoter out there on this board who only does christian shows and that is your full time living then speak up please. I challenge that it is not gonna happen because it is virtually impossible to do.

Snapshot Look Into The Taboo World Of Promotion

Artist says "Pay for my transportation, food, lights, sound, rider, hotel, airfare, promote me everywhere, venue, security, event insurance, provide people to sell my merchandise and oh ya don't forget the M&M's, plus the extra $2,000 fee and by the way don't complain about my asking fee's after all don't you know this is a ministry."

Promoter says "Yah!! I get to invest thousands of dollars so I can maybe make a few hundred that I will more than likely lose on the next show and I get to be seen as heartless, faithless, greedy and just out for money and the bottom line."

Now I will say this after that rant and not all too far from the truth snapshot. Are all artists this way? ABSOLUTLEY NOT. There are bad artists and there are bad promoters however I challenge this. 99% of signed artists subscribe to the above. Just pick up your phone and call ANY managment agency and ask if you can book there artist for a one off show for just expenses and NO guarantee. Good Luck. After 12 years I have only booked 4 shows with this agreement. Phillips, Craig & Dean, Miss Angie, Cindy Morgan & The Huntingtons. I'm not saying others don't but in 12 years that's the only ones so far that have done it for me. I will say that in EVERY case the artist walked away with money and I didn't lose anything. Specifically Miss Angie ($800.00) Huntingtons ($750) Cindy Morgan ($4,300) P,C&D ($7,600) and that money was after ALL expenses were paid and you know how much I took in profit from all those shows combined $0.00.

This is a lot to think about. And on a side note. To pick apart someones post half line by half line out of context is extremely unfair to Brent or anybody else.

To wrap up. This is the promotion "business", it's the way it works. It is very lopsided in the christian music scene. I know that just a couple bad shows and bad moves and it will DESTROY the possibility of doing ANY shows at all because I would be wiped out financially.

Tim

Tim,

I absolutely stand by my comment that the promoter takes all the risk.

It is supposed to be a BUSINESS! If you don't think that an artist will sell tickets then DON'T BOOK THEM!

Why should an artist assume risk, when they have no control over promotion (which most of the time is sadly UNDERDONE), or any of the rest of the event.

When you are a promoter and contact an artist you are BUYING a product. It's up to you to decide whether or not you are buying the right right product for you. The artist is giving you exactly what they say they will. A good musical event. And this is what they want for it. Either it's worth it, or it's not.

It's a lot like a car dealer. The local Ford place assumes the risk in buying the cars he puts on his lot. It's up to him to decide how many he thinks he can sell, and what options they should have, etc.

The promoter should be a very savvy business man and make descsions that are based on research and market analysis.

If you are promoting shows for the good of your area....IOW you don't care about making money, then you better find some backers to invest in them.

First of all, that is not how the auto industry works at all. My partner is a manager for one of the largest dealer chains in OK, and it is out of the dealers hands, except to close deals and service the cars. That's it. They have no say in anything else, because in most cases the dealers are owned by the manufacturers.

For the music side, there is nothing wrong with getting paid and having your needs met as a muso. There is nothing wrong with selling merch. This is something man made up, and it serves it's purpose. It is business because we operate under laws (of multiple types) in man's economy.

Like it or not churches are forced to operate as businesses when it comes to how they handle money, employ people, manage facilities, insurance, workman's comp, OSHA, background checks, etc, etc. They are forced into it. Gone are the days of cramming 100 kids who decide to go to church the last minute on a rickety old school bus. We live in a different world. Churches should not operate to chase the money, but many of them do.

There are many large mega churches owned by the pastor or founding pastor's family. I used to work for one. Some of the most dominant evangelical non-denoms are owned. You pay your tithe to the pastor basically. Instead of elders and deacons you have a board of directors. Very different.

+++Edit!+++ Wow. The senate has had enough complaints about these big ministry people, mostly the Word-of-Faith crowd, giving them a nice little letter requesting a three year audit and answers for big ticket purchases of non-ministry related items. Joyce Meyer is getting the blunt end first. She spent 20k on a marble crapper. I wish I had that. I could make another record on 20k.

There is nothing wrong with artists being paid. They should be paid what the market will allow. If churches cannot pay a band/artist what the artist needs, then the artist should rethink the audience, or do something else to make money.

To me it is all risky because the Christian artists have to worry about all of the same exact things that secular artists worry about. They worry about their image, publicity, going out of style, being forgotten, etc. Add to that the fact that they are in a market that is exponentially smaller than the secular market, you have a hard time.

The artist's management usually has total control over the marketing for the concerts. There are industry resources available to people in the concert industry. There are things kind of like credit ratings. If an artist isn't selling out shows or maintaining a radio presence, then the artist has to adjust his rate accordingly. If an artists shows are selling well on average, then he can even increase rates. When Garth Brooks was playing bars in OK before his album broke, he was not that expensive. When his single hit, he canceled all contracts and wanted around 60k just for him. That number is in the ballpark if I butchered the real number. So, in most contracts, there are promos provided, which is usually billed to the buyer, and there is an agreement that the concert will be promoted, and the management will verify. They ALL want the show to be a success for everyone.

You don't promote ministry bands to break even. You promote a ministry band for ministry. You promote a Stryper reunion show in a town with strong metal clubs for a potential profit. You promote an Alter Bridge show to appeal to the masses and make a profit. Or a Van Halen concert to have a sell-out in a day.

[sue d.]

Big HUGE difference. The church is the body of Christ. It has many tasks and responsibilities, from teaching, preaching, the Gospel...aiding the poor, worship, etc. ....A "persons" ministry is not equal to that of the church - though they can have the same goals at times. A church should NEVER function as a business. Business attempt to have a profit at the end of the month.

I'm not trying to equate or compare the quality or responsibility of a church's tasks to that of a person's or artist's ministry - or a concert promoter. I'm talking in strictly a financial sense. In the end - they both need to make financially sound decisions to stay alive and operate without going under.

And really - churches operate with profits too. That is how they build new buildings, upgrade equipment, hire assistant pastors, buy art supplies for Sunday School.... and support missionaries and the like. Naturally these profits are put back into the church or used for missions (or should be).

O.K. I have to clarify something else. I'm not putting John down for being a "rock star". I believe he really is a humble servant of God.

I know you weren't knocking John. But if you look at his story, his life - he IS one of the simple, unimpressive persons that the Lord took after his downfall following Head East, cleaned him up, rebuilt him and used him to win souls. At concerts. Through music. Which is actually a reply to the next quote:

But I just can't see the cost of a concert being a great investment for the sake of ministry. God has always used the simple things, the unimpressive things to build His kingdom

Great investment? When you count dollars spent vs souls saved - maybe not. But if even ONE soul is saved at a concert, or because a song spoke to a person who then gave his life to Christ - doesn't that make it worth it?

God can use ANYTHING to build his kingdom... not ONLY simple and unimpressive things. He wants the glory... and most often that will come from those that are least qualified, as He says. But not always.

[BForm]

[quote="sue d

But I just can't see the cost of a concert being a great investment for the sake of ministry. God has always used the simple things, the unimpressive things to build His kingdom

Great investment? When you count dollars spent vs souls saved - maybe not. But if even ONE soul is saved at a concert, or because a song spoke to a person who then gave his life to Christ - doesn't that make it worth it?

God can use ANYTHING to build his kingdom... not ONLY simple and unimpressive things. He wants the glory... and most often that will come from those that are least qualified, as He says. But not always.[/quote]

Sue, as soon as wrote that I knew that someone would bring up the "value of one soul saved" argument. Of course it's a good thing. But God is gracious and uses all kinds of situations to lead someone to himself. He could allow someone's pipes to burst and a Christian plumber comes to the door and witnesses while he works. We all should be "ministers" in that sense, and I believe John does use his career to minister.

However, I'm talking about considering how to use the money that God has laid in our hands for the purpose of contributing to His kingdom without expecting anything in return personally. You brought up earlier in this thread your disappointment in how few Petheads have contributed to the fund to help churches bring John and Bob in. I brought up when I was considering spending the money to do this as an outreach in a very public setting. But when I compare the relatively high cost of putting on a one night concert event with something like planting a church in a 3rd world country...........the decision is pretty easy to me.

Let me add one more quick point. Sometimes we will see fruit in spite of the fact that our decisions aren't always the most God honoring. (Oh that the modern church could understand this.) Let's use Moses as a very extreme example. When Moses struck the rock in anger, I guess you could say his ministry "flourished". The people were given water to drink and that's a good thing right? But God was dishonored in the process.

No, I'm not saying that a church that brings John and Bob in for a concert is dishonoring God. But I will say that if they rely on things like this to build their churches rather than what God has clearly ordained for the church in scripture, then we do dishonor God. How often do churches use big numbers as proof that God is "blessing". Yet what we end up building doesn't look or act anything like what we see commanded in scripture, and the church, rather than putting God's glory on display, makes Him out to be a liar.

[Ange]

I'm not a promoter and I admittedly don't know a lot about the financial aspect of a ministry, but I do know of a few bands that go to churches for a love offering, with an agreement that it has to be at least a certain minimum amount, to cover expenses. I wonder if that is something that Bob and John might be able to do? Even if they don't make as much at each concert as they would the way they are doing it now, maybe there would be more concerts to do since the expense/risk for the church or promoter would not be as much, and maybe in the long run they'd end up making more at the end of the year then they are now. Just a thought.

[petranite]

OK I will take the jump on this board. This have itamized on this discussion the general costs of putting on a 2guys show. Sue has repeatedly asked what I think is "fair". I have taken this question very seriously. I have taken into account "market research" "past concert performance" "ministry opportunity" as well as "financial risk". I have met and talked to two other Florida promoters and sought their advice on this also. My business partner and I have agreed to make an offer to Sue.

Sue I think the upfront risk on our part down here should be capped at $3,000. I am prepared to make an offer of a $900.00 honorarium guarantee plus airfare, hotel, ground transportation, all meals, & reasonable rider requests (I don't have 2guys current rider so that's why I put reasonable but I am sure they don't have any Van Halen requests). Plus give John & Bob 90% (That is a 90/10 split which I uasually do 80/20) of all profits and 95% of all merchandise sales(if the venue requests more than 5% I will cover the extra costs out of my pocket.

This allows me to put my risk cap at $3,000 and also have the potential to increase the amount 2guys gets.Now my hope is that if this proposal is accepted 1 of the two other promters will sign on and also promote a show the same weekend here in florida and we can turn this into a 2-3 days stint. We'll see what happens.Sue if this is acceptable to you,john & bob then let me know and we can talk further by phone.

Tim

[brent]

I think 2Guys is a fairly priced deal as it is. I am not saying that the average church can cover it. They can't without a large donor kicking in. Most churches use budgets with designated funds, etc.

But, the average church has members. Members know people who travel on business or for pleasure. It isn't hard to find someone that will cover the airfare with travel miles. One has to be resourceful. As far as ground transportation goes, who doesn't have a minivan, SUV or access to one? Who doesn't WANT to go hang out with the 2Guys and pester them all the way to the hotel? Hotels can be covered with in some cases too. Food? Heck. Most churches LOVE food. Some of the fatest, best cookin' little old ladies I know go to church and their ministry is to COOK BABY! Trust me, artists are tired of eating out. They like homecooked meals.

All of this is moot in my book. 2Guys just needs advertisement, marketing and gigs in the large, mega and hyper churches that can cover those kinds of expenses. Going out any cheaper decreases the value of them. It's the same amount of work for 2Guys, requires the same amount of time, which doesn't really help them out. There are only so many Sundays in a year. When can they make up the difference?

[petranite]

I agree totally with you Brent. My offer is based on my area. And I will say 2guys does only have so many Sundays a year. But as I see it right now and as evidenced on their tour page they aren't even booking those.
Sue has called me out more than once asking what I think is fair. I have thoughtfully considered this from my standpoint business wise. I DO believe $1,000 is fair as long as incentives are built in for more. I also believe $5,000 is fair if they can get it. I also believe $30,000 is fair if they can get it. They haven't been getting their asking price and thus the reason for no shows according to Sue. Hey Petheads I think as a fan they are worth WAY more but as a promoter I don't. I'm not tryig to be a jerk about this issue. My friends and family know me as probably a top 10 Petra fan. I have everything by everyone affiliated with the band including past bands, rare crap, solo albums, collections, dvd's, videos, etc, etc, etc, etc....I've spent well over a thousand dollars personally on everything Petra including concert tickets and the whole 1000 yards.

This is simply again a promoters perspective on the current climate of 2guys shows. If they were bigger or more popular and selling hot then I would book them in a heart beat and not have to worry that much about things financially. I believe Brent is DEAD ON when he says it would be to their benefit to play Mega Churches.
Tim

[jejac77]

Sorry to jump in again, but what is our purpose in life? Do we assess the risk and gain in everything we do? If you book a band only with the thought of profit and gain - then that is not ministry - that is business. I do not condemn business, but I am in ministry and look at things through a seriously different perspective. Having been a radio DJ for over 30 years, while a Vice President with a major corporation - I was asked by my Lord to leave it and go into ordained ministry. Did I ask the Lord, what must I do to attain eternal life? OR did I say Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord, Yes, Yes LORD? My story is YES - at a far greater financial loss than our friend the promoter. That is not the issue - the issue is - why in the name of ministry would you pursue booking a Christian band - for the value it has to the Kingdom of God - or the value that it will COST YOU?
Let me ask you a question - If Jesus was coming to your venue tonight - would you be concenrned with how much it would cost you to put Him up for the night and whether He wanted Diet Coke or water? I would hope that you would want to give Him your best - and not go to buy some off-label stuff - so that your profit wouldn't take the hit.
My point is --- why are you considering booking a Christian band - and I guess all I have seen from several (here on the zone) is that their concern is about dollars and cents. Brent made some valid points about the stewardship of running a church - but you cannot put a price on feeding the sheep - churched or non-churched! Please understand me when I say in all Christian love - that Jesus' last words in Matthew 28 are called the GREAT COMMISSION - not because of how much you can make - but how much of His charge you will accept.
God Bless You!
Fr. John Commins

[brent]

On the topid of cost of sales, or cost of feeding sheep...I am with ya.

BUT, to change gears and chase a rabbit...

There IS a time in business, when you are looking at current trends, projected sales, and the P&L from last quarter. At SOME point, you have to say "this ain't workin' folks, cause we have no results!" At Some point people in business, church, ministry, etc need to look at their METHODS, which may be costing them too much money, and may indeed be a stumbling block.

All that is to say that it takes about 9 churches to baptize one person in the SBC every year. There is a majority that has not had people accept Christ and be baptized in YEARS. At some point, if the churches were a business, the owner would start firing people, bring in fresh brilliant minds with new ideas, and rethink how things are done, or if they should be at all.

So, maybe if churches would look at their culture around them, and let go of the traditions and stuff that they think is important, then they would be more effective. Maybe churches would be able to pay for outside ministries to come in and jump start things. Maybe music would not be considered a luxury but an integral key to a community.

[winterlens]

Sorry to jump in again, but what is our purpose in life? Do we assess the risk and gain in everything we do? If you book a band only with the thought of profit and gain - then that is not ministry - that is business. I do not condemn business, but I am in ministry and look at things through a seriously different perspective.

I think the points raised are more a discussion of being wise stewards. Bottom line is that if people feel led to give and support the band, then they should do it. And certainly John and Bob have their share of vocal supporters.

Operating a ministry is an economic proposition, not just a spiritual one, and it makes sense to me, at least, that we would consider the economics of the situation from both sides. John and Bob can settle a bottom line and say that beyond such-and-such a price it isn't reasonable for them to leave town, and, on the same token, a church or promoter can say that such-and-such a draw is necessary to justify said price. On both sides the discussion is one of how best to use funds.


It's foolish to be attached to the ministers the way we seem to be sometimes; God sends out his word as he pleases to send it out, and he can just as effectively use another band as he could use John and Bob. If it's more reasonable for a church to book another group and the Word is preached, then go for it.

My personal feeling is that if your own wallet, ministry goals, and conscience coincide with John and Bob's, then support them. There are responsible ways to go about it without getting our knickers in a knot.

[petranite]

jejac77 I find funny that you mention ordained ministry. That is one of my points is john and bob "ordained ministry" Certainly not according to the five fold ministry if we take a strict approach. J&B have never said they are five fold. I do MANY things at a loss. I have already said if you read all my posts that if God impressed on me to have J&B then I would regardless of the cost because then it would be an obedience issue. You left your corporation because "you were asked by the Lord to leave" I have not been "asked by the Lord" to bring in J&B. And by the way look at my offer 10% of profits and they get 90%. To even turn this on me like this is frankly insulting to even imply that it's all about the money.

We can go around in circles with this issue and I really feel like I have exhausted every aspect. I turn it back to everyone else. If I am so wrong then everyone on this board should be booking 2guys for shows and don't worry about the money including you John. Then I could take the same approach as some and say don't you have enough faith? Can you put a price on 1 soul? Don't you value ministry? etc, etc, etc....

I have put myself straight out in the public with this issue. I see nothing more that I can add to it at this point. I have said MULTPLE times already on this thread. Problem is promoters aren't willing to pay J&B's asking price therefor they are not booking shows. Now again it's implied that I'm not living for the ministry but the dollar. Well in that case I would LOVE to know the percentage of promoters that have had the 2guys show and made the same profit as J&B on the show. By that I mean after expenses they walked away with at least the same amount in profit as J&B's honorarium. I am confident it is no more then 20% at most. Hey man it's not about the profit margin here on my end. I should not be the one who defends the stance that I don't want to lose $3,000 the artist should defend why they have to have $3,000 or they won't even bother to "minster".

Round and round we go. Who's next to step up and make me defend why promoters don't want to lose thousands and why the artist has a right to complain about it. I don't know too many people who would turn down the opportunity to go out two days a week. Have ALL there expenses paid for during those 2 days and make a minimum of $1,000 take home pay. Someone making $10 bucks an hour would have to put in a 100 hour work week to make that. That's the equivelant of a 40 hour work week at $25 an hour. But you only have to work 2 days for it.

And by the way if Jesus was coming to my venue tonight and it was verfiable I would promote the heck out of it and not charge because I know Jesus wouldn't be charging me thousands.

And I have never said I have a problem with Rider requests and honorariums, and all that other stuff my problem is when the artist charges more than what promoters will pay then turn around and say it's the promoters fault.

And here's some math for everyone who think I'm getting rich as a promoter and am more worried about the dollar then the ministry. With my proposal above I would first have to sell 300 tickets at $10 a piece to break even. Then I would have to sell another 100 tickets to make $100 (my take) J&B ($900 their take). So to keep you up to speed I would have to sell 400 tickets t make $100 and J&B would walk away with $1,800 plus 95% of merchandise sales. Ya that's right I'm in it for the money.

Tim

[gman]

Brent made some valid points about the stewardship of running a church - but you cannot put a price on feeding the sheep

I agree on the importance of feeding the sheep, and that a church should be doing that. II Guyz is certainly a great way to do that. For smaller churches, though, there is the issue of what they can afford to spend on bringing in music or other events. They may be able to bring in a different musical group that fits within their budget because that group already has a means of transportation and has its own sound equipment. The reality is that it is going to cost a church more to bring in II Guys because of the things that are necessary in addition to the honorarium. A church is put in a position of having to pay for things they can't already provide because John and Bob aren't in a position to provide them either, and maybe the church's budget doesn't allow for that much of an expense.
So, that leaves you with larger churches that can afford the expense. A church's leadership may force a particular ministry or event on the church and strongly encourage people to attend. I would tend to think that churches who bring in a lot of outside ministries would more often stick to bringing in what is popular or what the church people are demanding, within the range of what is out there that doesn't violate what the church believes. That puts II Guyz in a catch 22. If their ministry is not popular, doesn't have a lot of buzz, and large churches are not biting on the chance to bring them in, in order to get the attention of the large churches they need that buzz. Getting out there and doing a lot of shows is a big key. There's the catch 22. Large churches that can afford II Guyz are not biting, and smaller churches with budget constraints can't afford to bring them in. That leaves you with the people who do want to put on a II Guyz show and do the leg work to get a crowd. The reality is still that there are costs you can't get around. Even if there were no honorarium, there are still the other costs; travel, equipment rental, etc. They may be serious about promoting the ministry of II Guyz, but do not have the resources to cover those costs. That's where the concert fund comes in, to help cover those costs. That is why I suggested looking for sponsors willing to make large one time donations to the fund. I don't see where $5 and $10 a month from a few petheads is enough to get John and Bob out there doing enough shows to create a buzz around their ministry.

On a side note: Where do I find the link to the concert fund? Am I too dumb to see it? Also, must we have secrecy surrounding the cost of John and Bob? If we know specifically what amount of honorarium they are asking for, we can evaluate whether that fits our church's budget. I know a lot of smaller churches have limits as to what they'll pay a particular ministry. The other costs are unavoidable. They are what they are. You can only tweak so much. If I go to my church and say I would like to bring in II Guyz and it will cost around $5K, the reaction might be one of incredulity. It might go over better if I say II Guyz is requesting an honorarium of X amount to come and minister that would go directly to them, we would just have to figure out how to cover the other costs like travel and an appropriate sound system. We don't know those needs and costs are either, unless we've made a serious inquiry. To me the secrecy gives the impression of: for one low price you can book II Guyz from Petra, John Schlitt and Bob Hartman; formerly of the greatest Christian band of all time. As if you can be primed much the same a way slick infomercial would do, and you won't blink when you are told the price. Just sayin.

GMan

[petranite]

By the way $10 tickets is a round number but shows clearly that no matter what the price is set at I am getting no where close to the amount the artist is getting.