John @ Chrystal Cathedral

BForm · Post by **BForm** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:42 pm

Wow! This one's taken off again.

First of all, for all those who think you can make a decision about a preacher after listening to one sermon, think again. There are a slew of topics that could be preached on where Christians, buddhists, and even atheists could agree. Tomorrow may or may not show you what is at the core of what Schuller teaches.

Furthermore, why would anyone wait until tomorrow? You could have googled Robert Schuller several weeks ago and found more information and more direct quotes than you would have time to read. Thank you Brent for giving just a couple of the many source materials that could be found. But I guess it's all just hearsay right?

I still have to say I totally disagree with John using this as an opportunity to preach the truth and supposedly correct Schuller's errors. God is not so powerless that he needs us to pretend to have fellowship with His enemies in order to get the truth out there. I'll watch what is shown tomorrow to see for sure. However, I'm guessing that John will appear as one who is in complete fellowship with Robert Schuller, accepting him as a brother in Christ, and not in anyway showing his disagreement with the heresy Schuller teaches. If that happens John will be unintentionally spreading the truth and endorsing Schuller's satanic error at the same time.

I have to say this even though I know I'll be hated for it. We wouldn't be having this disagreement if this was about anyone else but John Schlitt. I have thought for years that some Petheads come within a razor's edge of worshiping all things Petra. John, Bob and anyone one else that's been involved in Petra are not inerrant. They can be guilty of making poor choices just like the rest of us. I am convinced that John has made a big mistake with this one.

BForm · Post by **BForm** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:57 pm

Here's some good stuff for those who don't know Schuller's teaching:

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exp ... tes-se.htm

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exp ... eneral.htm

Reading the interviews in the second one really turned my stomach.
But I guess it's just because I'm too legalistic and judgemental. Kind of like Paul when he said he wished the Judaizers who still taught the need for circumcision would go all the way and just emasculate themselves. Not a very positive message Paul.

BForm · Post by **BForm** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:11 pm

I'm not sure that Brent and I would agree totally on this issue. However, for those of you who are troubled by some of what Brent is saying about the sovereignty of God, here is some good information. John Piper has written some of the best "short" works on this topic. I recommend:

Are There Two Wills In God?
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibr ... ls_in_God/

and

Is God Less Glorious For Ordaining that Evil Be?

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibr ... t_Evil_Be/

I plead with everyone that reads this to commit to studying the whole counsel of God's word on this issue and not just rely on a few of our favorite versus. There's a name for that. It's called proof texting, and proof texting can be used to make the bible say anything we want it to.
Happy reading.

charl · Post by **charl** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:11 pm

Man some of you guys speculate too much. It doesn't take a lettered theologian to figure that out.

Robert Schuller is God's own heretical gift to the Reformed Church. If they complain too much about the charismatic heretics one can remind them that they have their own resident loon in Robert Schuller.

As for God and contrariness and all, My favorite quote on such things comes from Luther (which I am reminded of because I just quoted it elsewhere in greater form).

This is the highest degree of faithâ€”to believe that He is merciful, who saves so few and damns so many; to believe Him just, who according to His own will, makes us necessarily damnable, that He may seem, as Erasmus says, 'to delight in the torments of the miserable, and to be an object of hatred rather than of love.' If, therefore, I could by any means comprehend how that same God can be merciful and just, who carries the appearance of so much wrath and iniquity, there would be no need of faith. But now, since that cannot be comprehended, there is room for exercising faith, while such things are preached and openly proclaimed: in the same manner as, while God kills, the faith of life is exercised in death.

I do love Luther for all his wild offensiveness to our delicate sensibilities. Oh and he was indeed a Doktor. Heh.

notunderground · Post by **notunderground** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:02 am

BForm,

I would like to know how it can be empirically known just by looking at a person in church that they are in complete fellowship with the person preaching. How do you know John would be pretendingâ€¦did the Holy Spirit reveal that to you? I think (yet I do not know) you have a pretty tidy assumption going on here. And I would like to know what you base that on.

God of course has need of nothing, yet Heâ€™s ordained to use humans to do his bidding in time and space.

Since God sovereignly controls all things that come to passâ€¦then God could have very well sent John to bare witness of the truth through his song! Isnâ€™t truth supposed to correct error? Couldnâ€™t the truth in Johnâ€™s song be used by God to rebuke and correct Robert Schullerâ€™s errors? Isnâ€™t that what Christians are supposed to do, as light dispels darkness (II Timothy 3:16). And knowing that judgment will begin at Godâ€™s house (I Peter 4:17), then Johnâ€™s singing there will be used by God in the last day as a testimony against Robert Schuller if he doesnâ€™t repent of his errors.

I agree with your assessment of Robert Schullerâ€™s very bad theology! But to say that after you have seen John then you will know â€œthat John will appear as one who is in complete fellowship with Robert Schuller, accepting him as a brother in Chirst and not in anyway showing his disagreement with the heresy Schuller teaches.â€

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:14 am

Well John was awesome,

I loved hearing his testimony again, and his intro to Only men.

http://www.crystalcathedral.org/hour_of ... /index.php

I think getting all stewed up over JS being on this program is silly, quit ya winging pharisees.

trodLAN · Post by **trodLAN** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:56 am

You can download the testimony and song here:
http://www.johnwschlitt.net/video/cctestimony.asf
http://www.johnwschlitt.net/video/cconlymen.asf

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:12 am

I love how being concerned that a Christian may have made an error in judgement makes us legalistic pharisees.

brent · Post by **brent** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:19 am

notunderground wrote:BForm,

I would like to know how it can be empirically known just by looking at a person in church that they are in complete fellowship with the person preaching.

BForm was being sarcastic. I know that 90% of the people don't get me either. That is what is wrong with this format of conversing.

In the light of Barack Osama binLadin Obama, we can pretty much say that someone sitting in the pew under a preacher's preaching (for decades) must agree with the preaching, or there with ulterior motives. It would unbiblical (and irresponsible) to remain under the overseer preaching bull crap.

John did not submit himself to the teaching of anyone by performing. He did not endorse the teaching either. He went, he sang, he testified! Wo-oh-oh..solo....

cndfogie · Post by **cndfogie** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:29 am

"I have to say this even though I know I'll be hated for it. We wouldn't be having this disagreement if this was about anyone else but John Schlitt. I have thought for years that some Petheads come within a razor's edge of worshiping all things Petra. John, Bob and anyone one else that's been involved in Petra are not inerrant. They can be guilty of making poor choices just like the rest of us. I am convinced that John has made a big mistake with this one." BForm-----

I take great offense to this statement made by what seems to be a self righteous fool..yes I said FOOL..because that is indeed a statement made by a foolish person. I'm sorry I don't have a Petra Altar in my living room..To think that there are those here that worship a mere man...That just really chaps my hide. If you don't like that John sang at the Crystal Cathedral that quit supporting him financially...burn your Petra/Schlitt pics, records, tapes. There ya go make your voice heard. Why people here have to be so Pharisaical and what gives them the right to be I have no clue. Quit whining and put your poor attitudes to action. I for one am tired of hearing it. I don't care about the theological inerrencies in Schullers thinking, the song was recorded weeks ago and now that it is on tv maybe we can all just shut up about the while thing because it is already done no one can go back and take the footage down or make sure the Hour of Power doesn't play today. This thread is really getting out of control.

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:42 am

I'd like someone to prove how anyone here is being a pharisee. I think "pharisee" and "legalistic" are words thrown around when we don't like what others have to say.

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:46 am

I for one am tired of hearing it. I don't care about the theological inerrencies in Schullers thinking

This is, at best, problematic. His thinking is beyond erring, it is straight out heresy. You don't care that someone is leading thousands of Christians astray? I feel sorry for you.

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:33 am

Well, I've sort of kicked back to see where this was going instead of jumping in right away like I usually do, and I don't think this is out-of-control or an unreasonable discussion. BForm has raised a valid concern, this is a discussion board and he has as much right to his opinion and to voice his concerns as anybody. We do need Christians who will speak up and warn about the false teaching out there. I don't think he's being legalistic or self-righteous at all. And as Jason has pointed out, like it or not, when you're in a position where you're having to deal with the public a lot, you probably will have to deal with criticism and should use discernment in how you go about ministering. However, I do think this was a good opportunity for people to hear the truth; I don't think John's singing a song means he endorses Schuler's beliefs.

I grew up in a church that placed a great deal of importance on having a perfect church attendance record but didn't have a whole lot to say about being a Christian outside of church. That to me is what legalism is--Church is important, you do need to connect with other believers, but it's only a part of the Christian walk, and if your life outside church doesn't match up, church attendance means squat.

As for worshipping Petra, well, if we know that's not what we're doing, we don't have anything to worry about now do we?

executioner · Post by **executioner** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:00 pm

One of my concerns about John doing this was not that it would be seen as him supporting Shuler's Ministry but what would happen if some Petra/John fan got sucked into the Shuler Crap because he decided to watch the service with John speaking/music part. Shuler has been known to be very eye candy with his words and he can pull heart strings very easily and get someone convinced that might be going through some doubt or just having troubles right now in life. We all go through doubt and we all go through things in our lives that when we listen to Shuler it all seems like nothing and we can overcome it.

I will not be watching the video clip or/and be watching anything that has anything to do with the Shuler Hour of Power.

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:36 pm

executioner wrote:One of my concerns about John doing this was not that it would be seen as him supporting Shuler's Ministry but what would happen if some Petra/John fan got sucked into the Shuler Crap because he decided to watch the service with John speaking/music part.

Good point. I didn't even consider that perspective.

The Petra Zone

John @ Chrystal Cathedral

Schuller Quotes

God's Sovereignty

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