Doing Things "Not Of This World"

[Masada]

I would like to respond to the post about Petra's ability being a gift from God that you can't put a price on. That sounds really nice but is imprecise at best.

Petra's ability did not spring forth from the womb fully formed. What God DID give them was a talent. or at least the potential for it. It was up to them to develop that God gave them. What we see and hear on stage and on record is the result of many, many, and did I say many hours of hard work dedication and sacrifice on their parts, both as an artist and an individual. And that you can put a price on.

I admire Keith Green probably more than the next person. He had a definite impact on my life. But, that doesn't mean that just because he felt God's leading to run his ministry the particular way he did everyone should. If someone doesnt feel led to run their ministry that particular way it does not make them less spiritual than someone who does. Far too often we have a bad habit of accusing others of being less spiritual if they dont do things the way that we or maybe our favorite artists do them.

And, from my own experience as an artist, let me tell you that the Church doesnt often do right by their artists. There is nothing like driving hours to a gig out of state only to have no one there at the venue when you show up. Or poor advertising...or venue operators welshing on their promises because "we just dont have it right now." It would be nice if the church would give the workman his wages as the Bible instructs but the reality is that it doesnt. Now, dont tell me how it should be different...I agree...but as an artist and as a minister I have to operate on what is...not what should be. I'm also not saying that that happens always, but in my own experience and the testimony of many other I know in the ministry...it happens far more often than not.

I find it a bit incredulous that those who are not in music ministry would dare to criticize those who are. Unless you have walked a mile in our shoes, you cannot begin to understand all the things we have to deal with. And to try to compare it to a typical ministry doesnt work either. I have been a youth pastor for 6 years and the issues are totally different. I just think that perhaps we should restrain our criticism until we have walked in those shoes.

Masada

[executioner]

I think you are right Masada. As long it doesn't contradict the Bible or go against any laws, Than I believe we should respect the artists wishes on how they run their ministry or might I say their entertainment business. If we disagree with them then we can so choose not to buy their product, but also in the same area we should respect them and not come around on disscussion zones and slam them to the wall if we disagree with their tactics.

[Shell]

He. You probably don't understand how much is involved and how expensive it is to put together a concert if you don't understand how they got in debt in the 80s and early 90s Exe. That's not really something that we should be concerning ourselves with anyway.

This topic has about worn itself out don't you think? It's another one of those things we could discuss til we're blue in the face or until doomsday.

[executioner]

Yeah, maybe we should, but I think we thrive on controversy. I just think some people come around here without FACTS and a bunch of hearsay. Just tell the truth!!!!!

I am not here to try and tell anyone the latest scoop, or to cause any ill will with anyone; Just to enjoy talking about things that interest me.

[PetfanInCt]

I really do not see how Petra was in debt during the 80's and early 90's. I would understand now but back then thats a farce. I know Bob and John both live in very nice areas of town. I don't know about John but Bob doesn't have to work another day in his life if he didn't want too. Bob's guitar workshop is just a hobby according to him and he is taking home very little if any from Petra's concerts since he has been back full time.
I will give you that most artists in CCM are having to that, but there are a few out there that are making quite a bit of money right now and in Petra's case the past.

Yes from photos I've seen of John and Bob family stuff. They live well. They certainly do not have to worry about were there next meal is gonna come from. I'm sure the houses are paid off and the bills have no problem in being paid....

[brent]

I really do not see how Petra was in debt during the 80's and early 90's. I would understand now but back then thats a farce. I know Bob and John both live in very nice areas of town. I don't know about John but Bob doesn't have to work another day in his life if he didn't want too. Bob's guitar workshop is just a hobby according to him and he is taking home very little if any from Petra's concerts since he has been back full time.
I will give you that most artists in CCM are having to that, but there are a few out there that are making quite a bit of money right now and in Petra's case the past.

Yes from photos I've seen of John and Bob family stuff. They live well. They certainly do not have to worry about were there next meal is gonna come from. I'm sure the houses are paid off and the bills have no problem in being paid....

Gee, maybe because they were getting half of the ticket price that a secular show costs to provide. Maybe because they secured one of the largest stage/lighting rigs used on the ELO tours, which was not cheap. Again, "christian" concert promoters not paying, etc. That was then, this is now. Nobody said that the guys were destitute. The issue and the context of that statement was that productions cost good money, and it takes money on the front side to make a concert happen. That was the context.

Don't judge what you see. I have a nicer house than I can afford because a man was very gracious to my wife and I. There are blessings and acts of God that can make things come about. Don't assume anything.

[PetfanInCt]

Its astonishing how much power man has given that piece of paper,we call it money.

[St. Augustine's Pears]

THOUGHTS ON MONEY...

What the bible says..."For the love of money is the root of all evil." 1 Timothy 6:10

Cotton Mather, Puritan minister..."Religion begat prosperity, and the daughter has devoured the mother."

And finally...

John Rockefeller was a multi-millionaire during the Great Depression (his net worth would've rivaled Bill Gates in today's money). During an interview, he was asked, "How much money is enough?". He thought for a minute, and solemnly replied, "You always want a little bit more.".

[brent]

For the sake of clarification...We are not saying that Petra is in it for the money right?

Notice that verse says that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Not the money. Even Jesus and his disciples had to have money to make their ministry happen. All are to work. The man that doesn't provide is worse than an infidel. So working or providing services for cash is not wrong, it is scriptural. It is the manipulation of people and God to get what you want, and/or being driven by a fervant lust for more that is wrong.

But! If it were not for these people having a lust for more money, we would not be sitting here, typing on cheap computers that would blow away a room full of air-conditioned crap, that would have cost about $2-3 MILLION dollars in the 60's and 70's.

[seichu kaisho]

Oh, and Brent...I'm glad to meet someone else who shares the same opinion of Rich Mullins. I mean, yes, "Awesome God" is probably one of the greatest Christian songs ever recorded, but the man was in serious doctrinal error towards the end of his life.

So what did he profess to believing?

[executioner]

Brent & St. Augustine,

Before we sit here and accuse someone of error, lets see the facts about what you 2 are saying. I believe both of you have step over the line, especially Brent's comment about God taking him home before he could do anymore damage with his witness. That is something a Christian should not speculate on at least not in public. Unless you have proof of something like that then I think you need to be quiet.

[brent]

Brent & St. Augustine,

Before we sit here and accuse someone of error, lets see the facts about what you 2 are saying. I believe both of you have step over the line, especially Brent's comment about God taking him home before he could do anymore damage with his witness. That is something a Christian should not speculate on at least not in public. Unless you have proof of something like that then I think you need to be quiet.

Obviously I have no proof of it. We are not alone in our speculation. I don't think that you understand how people follow these artists like they are spiritual leaders. I don't think that you know how many churches have brain dead people that followed Rich Mullins, and actually got jacked up questioning there faith.

It is Christian, and a commandment, to judge what is good, sound teaching, in light of the Word of God. Rich Mullins and his new-age charasmatic catholic priest taught/believed some wild, unbiblical stuff. They wrote books about it. Their own words prove the point.

I can tell you that my local station, KXOJ (a very large, influential network of stations in OK, AR, TX, MO, KS) had Rich come in and play a show. He wowed the DJ's with all kinds of "spiritualistic" ramblings. Little of it based in scripture. It was all "I think..." or "I believe...". None of it was bible based. That's a big error.

So a few days later, Rich dies. Rich is played for a week on this station, for atleast a couple of days non-stop. They replay his music, his ramblings, etc. He talks about the Catholic church and his new quasi doctrine. These people here were eating it up. It showed me the immaturity and neglegence at the station for one, and that it doesn't matter what you believe, or say. You can do what you will, just throw some vague "gods" in there and you are ok. There is no quality control.

If you think that God will allow a major mouthpiece to live, confusing his flock, sending people to hell, you are mistaken. I can point to many places in scripture where people were taken out, or died early missing God's blessing for them. This may or may not be the case with Rich. But, I can tell you that it occured right before he was going to be baptized into this quasi catholic church.

What's scary is that all of the elderly milk drinking Baptists, Methodists, Charasmatics, Assemblies of God, etc, etc would have still paid to go hear him sing, paid for his heretical books, and some would have strayed what is the perfect, simple gospel of Christ, to go into a dead religion that borders on cultic activities, messess with the Word of God, and bears no fruit that is of God corporately.

In the Ragamuffin Gospel, Brennan Manning, the guy who developed their doctrine (something that they said you don't need ironically) is biblically illiterate. He calls the gospel of Christ as outlined in Romans is quote: "folly" (p. 209); he teaches an eastern-type meditation (pp. 43, 205-206); he uses vulgarity (pp. 46, 137); he twists scripture to say things that it doesn't (pp. 23, 173, 73, 28); he says that everyone, but the self-righteous (who are those that obey God), will go to heaven, even those who receive the mark of the beast enter in (pp. 17, 26, 29). This is called Universalism folks! This is what Carlton Pearson and other mainstream charasmatics are moving towards to make up the crowds that their false revival hasn't brought in. Manning endorses some worldliness (pp. 80, 94, 98); and he says that you do not have to repent to be forgiven. (p. 73). Get the book for yourself. Oh yeah, check out which who wrote the forward. Michael W. Smith. He is next on the list to stop buying.

[executioner]

I want to see proof of your accusations Mr.know it all. If you can't give us proof then please be quiet and drop the subject. Does anyone know of these things thar Brent is talking about and if so show us the proof? If you can't then I think this subject should be closed to save a Christian man's integrity.

[brent]

Re-read my post. Go buy the book yourself. It is at the Catholic bookstore as well.

I study hard to find out what people believe before I blindly trust my subconscious mind and nervous system to them. If it's a spade, I call it. My music collection is small when it comes to music with lyrics. If it doesn't hold up to scripture, I don't buy it. If the singer is a tinkling cymbal, just in it to be an entertainer, or if he says things authored by the devil, like Rich, then I'm out.

It may make people mad. Tough luck. Do you want to get serious or don't you? Do you believe that God is God and His way is THE way? The listen to people that believe that way. The miniute that they change, boycott the label, the promotors and get their attention. Obviously they don't care about doing it for the right reasons or they would have been corrected by the Holy Spirit already. So hit them where it hurts. In the wallet.

We are AT WAR! The devil will blindly slap you into falling away, having your ears tickled by what sounds good. Beware brother. Be informed.

[calicowriter]

I can't help it. Everytime I see some of the harsh posts on this forum I hear a song we sang a lot at church when I was a kid:

"We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord
We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord
And we pray that all unity may one day be restored
And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love "

Sometimes when I am tired or overwhelmed by the number of things I don't know and understand and how far I still have to go on my journey to become like Christ, I will stop and look behind me. And when I do, I am always amazed at how far I have come. And so thankful for the people God has put in my path to guide me the right way. I see friends and acquaintences standing still or starting down the wrong roads, and I want them to join me. But I have discovered that if I yell to them that they are wrong, misguided or even stupid, all I am doing is making them defensive and more determined to go where they are headed. Instead, I try to encourage them to come along by sharing what great things there are to see and experience along my road, especially the destination!

But no matter how excited I may be, if all they see on my road are harsh, critical and unjoyful people, they are going to take a pass on my road. The enemy has already made those other roads pretty darn enticing, but they would be empty if all of us reflected the light and love of our Savior. That is what put me on this right road; I saw the relationship some people had with Jesus and I said, "I want that!"

Now, just to be perfectly clear, I am not claiming to be perfect myself. In fact, I have battled negativity and a critical spirit most of my life. It has only been recently that God has shown me how my attitude and pride appears to others. And it grieves me to think that I may have turned someone away from Jesus.

The members of Petra have labored long and hard to create a powerful ministry that extends all over the world. I would hate for anyone to come to a Petra forum and feel diminished or unwelcome.