Final Update on CITAS and free CITAS downloads.

[Mexican Spud]

Well here's an idea. Lets do a live DVD of a Petra Concert now and have a bonus feature of CITAS. There problem solve. Thank you and goodnight.

[Jonathan]

CITAS has been digitally remastered, is available for sale on the various music download sites.

Where it's at? I have a wad of Franklins burning a hole in these pants I bought with the advice of GQ magazine.

[Dan]

There are no law suits and if there were it would be Brent vs The Petra fans.

I am sure Carman would like to know that JWS is hosting his Video with Petra .

OHH don't tell him Brent.

We are just Petra fans so leave us alone.

[brent]

Re: The Concert Footage DVD That has been discussed. That is an excellent idea.

I know a person with excellent concert videos pre CITAS. They need to be transfered to DVD for posterity anyway. I am investigating that. With live shows, it gets a bit tricky. The courts have flipped back and forth as to wether bootlegs of shows are legal.

John has been quoted by someone (here I believe) that it is ok to share video of concert events. But this was before Bob was back in the picture, and these videos are pre John. Phone calls are being made. The tricky part is justifying the expense, because it all has to be done for free. No one can pay for a disc, time, anything.

And just an FYI, I AM a fan of Petra. I am not some old, disgruntled fuddy-duddy wet blanket. I have offered to Bob to professionally record Petra's reunion show, all at my expense, tried to use my contacts to get the word to the right people about the CITAS DVD, worked to fund it myself (with Jonathan David Brown and I engineering) worked Petra concerts, was in a band that opened for Petra concerts, listened to the band since they came out, played all the wrong songs (all the heavy stuff hehe and even a whole record) while on the radio, etc, etc. So, I like the band. Always have. Always will, unless they turn into a rap or boy band.

[executioner]

All versions of CITAS are NO longer in print, and is no longer available unless you find it on auction sites or go to used CD stores. I called Mardel's last night and they show it is out of print and can't be ordered any longer.

I got to talk to a legal team member here at my job and this is what I was told.
If someone has a purchased copy of a video/CD they are legally aloud to rebroadcast it over the internet so as long as no money exchanges hands and/or the item is out of print. There is alot of controversy with this subject, but these people who have bought CITAS are well within the rights of the copyright laws. The laws are very vague about this subject that is why there is always problems when this comes up. The record companies and artists are trying everyting in their power to stop these, but all they can do is file a lawsuit and hope the judge sides with them. I know a few years ago Aerosmith lost a lawsuit with something of this nature.

I am not trying to cause any issues between Brent and I, I just feel like sometimes he throws things in peoples face intentionally, but I could be wrong because I know how hard it is to see peoples intentions over the internet. So I hope there are no hard feelings.

[Dan]

John has been quoted by someone (here I believe) that it is ok to share video of concert events. But this was before Bob was back in the picture, and these videos are pre John. Phone calls are being made. The tricky part is justifying the expense, because it all has to be done for free. No one can pay for a disc, time, anything

I think you have used all your life lines up mate.

[brent]

All versions of CITAS are NO longer in print, and is no longer available unless you find it on auction sites or go to used CD stores. I called Mardel's last night and they show it is out of print and can't be ordered any longer.

I got to talk to a legal team member here at my job and this is what I was told.
If someone has a purchased copy of a video/CD they are legally aloud to rebroadcast it over the internet so as long as no money exchanges hands and/or the item is out of print. There is alot of controversy with this subject, but these people who have bought CITAS are well within the rights of the copyright laws. The laws are very vague about this subject that is why there is always problems when this comes up. The record companies and artists are trying everyting in their power to stop these, but all they can do is file a lawsuit and hope the judge sides with them. I know a few years ago Aerosmith lost a lawsuit with something of this nature.

I am not trying to cause any issues between Brent and I, I just feel like sometimes he throws things in peoples face intentionally, but I could be wrong because I know how hard it is to see peoples intentions over the internet. So I hope there are no hard feelings.

Mr. Greene said that CITAS is available for digital down-loading from the various DSP's. He did not say it was available in stores.

[sue d.]

Hmmm... this is all a bit unsettling.

We do have tons of vids on jws.com - but there's no money changing hands. I know that doesn't count for anything when it comes to lawsuits. Or does it? According to Exe, if I or other people own the original VHS/DVD versions, then it's OK to post them on a site if I don't charge for seeing them?

Truthfully - the vids I have on there were put simply to give people a chance to see them. Many people in foreign countries have never seen Petra except for a photo, so I thought putting videos would be a great idea. And I've gotten plenty of feedback from people - even a person in the Ukraine who was ever so gratefull to finally see a real video of the band.

To be truly legal in hosting them - I should have gone around to all the publishers and gotten permission? Talk about a legalistic nightmare.

So Brent - are you saying that I'm potentially liable, and could be sued - along with John, MJ, Curt and anyone else who donated them - for having these vids online?

Are you saying that EMI is going to be sueing internet sites - or have they been doing this all along and we're just now hearing about it from you?

The whole thing about internet pirating/downloading/hosting seems to be SO up in the air with lawsuits coming and going, being won and lost - how is a person supposed to know what is legal and what isn't?

Napster was shut down - but there are hundreds more in their place, like Kazaa. Why are some killed and others not? I don't get it.

Bottom question: need we remove all the vids from jws.com? I really don't want to do that, but on the other hand - I don't feel like paying a defense lawyer either.

[winterlens]

If someone has a purchased copy of a video/CD they are legally aloud to rebroadcast it over the internet so as long as no money exchanges hands and/or the item is out of print.

Did the legal guy you talked to make a distinction between streaming a video and offering it for download? I'm not up on the legal proceedings with the RIAA and MPAA, but it seems to me that some distinctions were made between the two.

[crossways]

I know that I am new, but I would like to offer my perspective.

I don't think that Brent has sounded negative at all. I don't know him, nor I have I read other posts by him, but this seems genuine, to me.

I don't claim to know the exact law on this and I took a graduate course on Copyright law. It's one of those things that has to be taken to court and hashed out. So, if you are doing something questionable, you may not get convicted, but you may very well get taken to court just create case law, which is how this kind of law gets interpreted.

But the real point is the spirit of the law. I teach music, lead worship in a church, and I am in a indy Christian rock band. As I learn more and more about the business of being in a band, I am shocked at the expense incurred.

Between equipment, event-staff, travel expenses, etc. a concert (even a small production) can be several hundred to several thousand dollars. And that's only if they has several concert dates to help reduce the expenses.

A local band Gretchen http://www.gretchenland.com/ that we open for often let me in on some of the obstacles for good bands and shows.

They often go into the hole for a concert, just for the exposure.

They have a lable, managment and a booking agent - yet they are not full-time. They just can't make enough to meet expenses. The last time I looked, they are doing about as many shows as Petra. We expect a good product, but that takes time, effort and resources and that means $$$$$$$.

John and Bob and the rest all have to live somewhere, raise their kids, eat, etc.

We all need to be paying for anything we get ESPECIALLY if we like the guys in the band.

I have met John several times, purely as a fan, and he was the nicest guy I had ever met.

I am NOT going to take food off his table.



So here we sit wanting more Petra concerts, more cd's, more dvd's - but we want to give stuff away for free, their stuff.



How are they supposed to remain a full-time ministry? They had to pay for all of CITAS' production - what are we willing to pay to see it.

The spirit of the law protects work that is easily copied: writing, music, video. Yes the internet has opened up a new can of worms, but the spirit of the law remains.

[executioner]

Winterleins,

I wrote down exactly what he wrote to me in the email, so I really don't know. I could email him again and see if there is a difference.


Sue,

I believe it is perfectly legal what JWS is doing, but since it is a civil thing they could still file lawsuits if they wanted too. That is what is happenning right now with all the Labels and artists. Also Petra and Inpop are both aware what JWS is about, and would assume something would have already been said if they had a problem with it. It is also my understanding that if a label like EMI would file something that Bob would also have to agree to file, because he holds the rights to it. In other words Bob would have to named in the suit one way or another, and I really don't think he wants to be a part of that.

[Metallinostheos]

Brent,

Thank you for the information and your efforts. Is it possible for you to contact Mr. Greene and find out where CITS is available? I have checked iTunes and it is not available there. I would enjoy listening to a better quality recording than I currently have on Record.

Thank you.
Jeff

[calicowriter]

Perhaps the safest and most ethical thing to do is to do some research and find out what audio/video that someone (jws.net in particular) has listed is available for purchase via VHS, DVD, CD or web download. If the work IS available, provide a description and a link to the product. In cases where it is NOT available, I'd say go ahead and offer it until you hear otherwise. This way, you can offer things that aren't available anywhere else without taking potential royalities from the band.

[PetfanInCt]

1. There is a difference between an artist site hosting downloads, and someone else without permission from the publisher/owner.

2. I only brought it up because Christian's should watch out, because they are in the scopes to be sued by the labels. Piracy in the church is rampant and unscriptural. It's no skin off of my nose if you don't accept the law. The bible says "Obey the law of the land."

3. I gave you guys the heads up, because the label is VERY aware that they are posted here, and they are aware of THEIR legal rights, the artists rights, etc.

4. I didn't make the law, I didn't bring the message to make you mad. I brought the message to help you, by giving you time to yank it from the web.

For the love of money is the root of all evil.

Its all about the money, gimme, gimme some more, no not enough gimme some more. This is work for Jesus. Taking Words out of Bible and making songs from them. Jesus gave us the Bible freely. But we greedy men put a price tag on work for Jesus.

Labels put more value in the dollar then they do Jesus..Period...

Makes me sick. Cant put a law on Jesus's creation.

In Christ
Rich

You're right. Selling Jesus is a funky thing. But, money is what makes the world go round. Everyone has to have it. My bill collectors say so. There is nothing wrong with having money. It's when the money has you that it is a problem. I have never been there.

Well I chose to let Jesus make me go around not the world.

[Shell]

That's fine Rich, but your creditors aren't going to accept that when your bills come due. You're likely to get your gas, electricity, phone, etc. cut off if you try to tell them that.

Read Brent's post again, he's right. Jesus never said there was anything wrong with having a money system. They had bills to pay and things to buy in Jesus' time too.