just wondering

[brent]

So how can I find out what todays christian artists are like off stage? I don't want to give my hard earned money to a bunch of drunk, fornicating, drug using musicians! If I like there songs I'll just download them for free j/k. But really, how can the average guy who is trying to live for God and teach his children how to follow God find musicians that are trying to do the same? How do I know that the bands I liked growing up in the 80's didn't do the same thing (Joe English). It just shows that we can't look at man we must look at God!

Do I just not care if they are not living for God and buy their music anyway? I personally have a hard time listening to Ray Boltz and Michael English songs, but according to the bible my sin is just as bad as theirs. What a can of worms!!

I understand. I never liked those two to begin with. Ray was so corny and Michael blowing out his throat, singing out of his range. But, I understand. How it works for me is I consider it all entertainment, not church, not ministry, not God ordained, etc and it all makes sense. They are just humans, singing about Christian things. The problem is not with them actually. It is the fact that we idolize and pedestal anyone with a microphone in their hand and a follow spot illuminating them on stage, tv, etc.

[executioner]

So how can I find out what todays christian artists are like off stage? I don't want to give my hard earned money to a bunch of drunk, fornicating, drug using musicians! If I like there songs I'll just download them for free j/k. But really, how can the average guy who is trying to live for God and teach his children how to follow God find musicians that are trying to do the same? How do I know that the bands I liked growing up in the 80's didn't do the same thing (Joe English). It just shows that we can't look at man we must look at God!

Do I just not care if they are not living for God and buy their music anyway? I personally have a hard time listening to Ray Boltz and Michael English songs, but according to the bible my sin is just as bad as theirs. What a can of worms!!

I understand. I never liked those two to begin with. Ray was so corny and Michael blowing out his throat, singing out of his range. But, I understand. How it works for me is I consider it all entertainment, not church, not ministry, not God ordained, etc and it all makes sense. They are just humans, singing about Christian things. The problem is not with them actually. It is the fact that we idolize and pedestal anyone with a microphone in their hand and a follow spot illuminating them on stage, tv, etc.

Your point of view is taken and in reality this is probably the case for most that are in CCM, but Petra for one over the years has specifically has said they are a ministry first and Greg in the last couple of years has said the reason why they have come back is to be ministers to the ones that have fallen away. I know in the past that artists like Rez, White Heart, Bloodgood, and Whitecross all viewed themselves as ministers. I do believe that if you hold yourself up as a minister and consistently talk the Gospel in front of the masses, then you will be and should be held to a different level of accountability not only by us but by God.

[brent]

So how can I find out what todays christian artists are like off stage? I don't want to give my hard earned money to a bunch of drunk, fornicating, drug using musicians! If I like there songs I'll just download them for free j/k. But really, how can the average guy who is trying to live for God and teach his children how to follow God find musicians that are trying to do the same? How do I know that the bands I liked growing up in the 80's didn't do the same thing (Joe English). It just shows that we can't look at man we must look at God!

Do I just not care if they are not living for God and buy their music anyway? I personally have a hard time listening to Ray Boltz and Michael English songs, but according to the bible my sin is just as bad as theirs. What a can of worms!!

I understand. I never liked those two to begin with. Ray was so corny and Michael blowing out his throat, singing out of his range. But, I understand. How it works for me is I consider it all entertainment, not church, not ministry, not God ordained, etc and it all makes sense. They are just humans, singing about Christian things. The problem is not with them actually. It is the fact that we idolize and pedestal anyone with a microphone in their hand and a follow spot illuminating them on stage, tv, etc.

Your point of view is taken and in reality this is probably the case for most that are in CCM, but Petra for one over the years has specifically has said they are a ministry first and Greg in the last couple of years has said the reason why they have come back is to be ministers to the ones that have fallen away. I know in the past that artists like Rez, White Heart, Bloodgood, and Whitecross all viewed themselves as ministers. I do believe that if you hold yourself up as a minister and consistently talk the Gospel in front of the masses, then you will be and should be held to a different level of accountability not only by us but by God.

I know Petra's position and mission statement per Greg. But, they are only going to be successful if the market allows them to be. There will come a time when the ministry will not be happening, because there is no money to pay for it. So, that puts the ministry in the hands of mammon. I don't buy that.

[adpetrafan]

I know Petra's position and mission statement per Greg. But, they are only going to be successful if the market allows them to be. There will come a time when the ministry will not be happening, because there is no money to pay for it. So, that puts the ministry in the hands of mammon. I don't buy that.

If God called these guys to do what they are doing right now then He will make it possible for hem to do what He wants them to do. Either you believe God is bigger than "the market" or you don't.

[executioner]

So how can I find out what todays christian artists are like off stage? I don't want to give my hard earned money to a bunch of drunk, fornicating, drug using musicians! If I like there songs I'll just download them for free j/k. But really, how can the average guy who is trying to live for God and teach his children how to follow God find musicians that are trying to do the same? How do I know that the bands I liked growing up in the 80's didn't do the same thing (Joe English). It just shows that we can't look at man we must look at God!

Do I just not care if they are not living for God and buy their music anyway? I personally have a hard time listening to Ray Boltz and Michael English songs, but according to the bible my sin is just as bad as theirs. What a can of worms!!

I understand. I never liked those two to begin with. Ray was so corny and Michael blowing out his throat, singing out of his range. But, I understand. How it works for me is I consider it all entertainment, not church, not ministry, not God ordained, etc and it all makes sense. They are just humans, singing about Christian things. The problem is not with them actually. It is the fact that we idolize and pedestal anyone with a microphone in their hand and a follow spot illuminating them on stage, tv, etc.

Your point of view is taken and in reality this is probably the case for most that are in CCM, but Petra for one over the years has specifically has said they are a ministry first and Greg in the last couple of years has said the reason why they have come back is to be ministers to the ones that have fallen away. I know in the past that artists like Rez, White Heart, Bloodgood, and Whitecross all viewed themselves as ministers. I do believe that if you hold yourself up as a minister and consistently talk the Gospel in front of the masses, then you will be and should be held to a different level of accountability not only by us but by God.

I know Petra's position and mission statement per Greg. But, they are only going to be successful if the market allows them to be. There will come a time when the ministry will not be happening, because there is no money to pay for it. So, that puts the ministry in the hands of mammon. I don't buy that.

It's funny but their mission statement really hasn't changed much over the 40 years they've been out there; about the only thing that has changed is maybe the group of people they are trying to focus on. This won't change just because the market says it has too; It will only change if God says so.
Your quote "they are only going to be successful if the market allows them to be" is totally off base unless you replace market with God; sorry God will pay the bills not the market. I do believe if the ministry portion of Petra is not there then Bob won't be around, only God will dictate how far Petra will go.

[Preacherman777]

If God called these guys to do what they are doing right now then He will make it possible for hem to do what He wants them to do. Either you believe God is bigger than "the market" or you don't.

Exactly.

[brent]

I know Petra's position and mission statement per Greg. But, they are only going to be successful if the market allows them to be. There will come a time when the ministry will not be happening, because there is no money to pay for it. So, that puts the ministry in the hands of mammon. I don't buy that.

If God called these guys to do what they are doing right now then He will make it possible for hem to do what He wants them to do. Either you believe God is bigger than "the market" or you don't.

If God is bigger than the market, then why do promoters continue to not meet the riders and contracts, stiffing the band? Why have they had to pay out of their own pocket to get back home? How come they were millions in debt. God does not usually defy the laws he made. God does not have some economy for christians that exists aside from the worlds. Who provides? People do through the Holy Spirit, as they are able. Why do they need a label and money then? Why can't they get a major deal and be huge again? They wouldn't sell. Its not just them. Few are selling big. The market doesn't allow for it.

[Preacherman777]

Your examples don't prove whether or not God is bigger than the market. The point is that God can do what he wants to do and the market, regardless of who's running it, does not have the power to frustrate God's will. The bigger question may be what God's will actually is and when will God provide supernaturally for his will to be carried out, but it's not a question of whether or not he can. I think this is the problem that people are having with what you are saying is that it sounds like you are saying the market has the ability to frustrate God's will. I think you need to clarify for yourself on this matter, so it can be understood whether or not you are in theological error. As of yet, I haven't brought Biblical examples into this, where we find God overcoming the limitations of worldly roadblocks, but there are plenty of examples to be offered if you need them. You have no idea why God allows certain things to happen, even things that may seem to you as proof that God is not involved. Trials and discipline come from the Lord for our benefit, so let's not lose sight of that.

[brent]

Your examples don't prove whether or not God is bigger than the market. The point is that God can do what he wants to do and the market, regardless of who's running it, does not have the power to frustrate God's will. The bigger question may be what God's will actually is and when will God provide supernaturally for his will to be carried out, but it's not a question of whether or not he can. I think this is the problem that people are having with what you are saying is that it sounds like you are saying the market has the ability to frustrate God's will. I think you need to clarify for yourself on this matter, so it can be understood whether or not you are in theological error. As of yet, I haven't brought Biblical examples into this, where we find God overcoming the limitations of worldly roadblocks, but there are plenty of examples to be offered if you need them. You have no idea why God allows certain things to happen, even things that may seem to you as proof that God is not involved. Trials and discipline come from the Lord for our benefit, so let's not lose sight of that.

Look, I agree about the market not trumping God's will. This is why I maintain the market is apart from God's will. The market does not care about God's will. It is driven by other factors. Some of those factors are not necessarily wrong. These examples would be related to customer spending habits changing because of socioeconomic changes, etc. You can devote your life to studying these things, get degrees, etc. The market has trumped Petra multiple times on multiple levels. To quote with REO, "roll with the changes...keep on rollin". My point is that some people here think that since Petra was used once, was great once, that they should be great always. This is just impossible and it is not because of God. Sure God can still speak through their music to touch lives, but just because the band is not huge is not indicative of God withholding his blessing, or God granting a blessing because they are huge.

We cannot say that God controls the market. This is sick. I will flip the bird to any god who will use false doctrine, sex and all of the immoral, greedy bastards to steer the CCM machine. God only uses what is set apart. This is what is hard for me to balance, knowing that the wealth of the wicked is laid up for the just. There is a fine line between making a fool out of the devil by using his resources to further the work of God and making a deal that puts bands in a position of slave, owing money and taking orders that bind them on many levels. I do know that there is no biblical support for God requiring believers to get in bed with the world to do His will.

Evidently, people do not know what God's will is. It is simple. The purpose of His church is to worship Him, fellowship with Him and believers, mature spiritually, serve Him and touch the world through missions. The focus of our mission is His will, for ALL to come to Him, none to perish, loved as we love ourselves and discipled. How we do it must glorify God.

This is why I maintain that a band, "ministering" only when money is paid, is market driven, not ministry driven, and it is not essential to God's will be accomplished. God's will requires US to do what we ought to do, fulfilling the great commission on a personal level. It does not require bands, entertainers, etc doing their thing. That is just icing on the cake, and/or making up the church's inability to reach people as it should. It has been too busy being legalistic, manipulating people into it's little box. If the church had been on fire, and alive to the cause, band's like Petra would have been welcomed in with open arms and the people would have followed. Some enterprising people never would have thought twice about selling it, or selling Jesus for that matter. The church should have had the market covered. Oh wait, the church beat them to it. Catholics were selling salvation long before CCM, TBN and all of this mess hit the scene. Jesus did not say, "You go into all the world...as long as you get paid, have your tech rider met, etc. By the way, you need to look and play younger, etc." The will of God will be accomplished long after we are all nuked back to the stone age and there is no electricity to amplify a band. I can't wait for the TV evangelists to go away.

[rexreed]

Everything typed in this thread must have been God's will otherwise it would not have even existed. Just like God wanted the Germans to kill Jews and Abraham Lincoln to be murdered The God's will argument sure doesn't take much thought does it? Some really stupid arguing derailed an interesting thread.

[Preacherman777]

Holy cow. Some pretty serious shots out into left field going on here. Nobody here is saying that the evil in the world is God's will, but some seem to be thinking that's what is being said. The point is that God is sovereign and not even the free will of man to do evil or reject God is able to do what it does unless the Lord allows it. It's this whole idea that there are things going on in the world that God is completely independent of. There is nothing at all that falls into that category. If anyone thinks so, they are sorely lacking in Biblical and theological understanding. As I said before, anything that happens in this world is either something God is doing or something God is allowing because it either works into the big picture of his plans or it does not conflict with them. I am not saying God has to bless Petra, but I am saying that whether Petra succeeds or whether Petra fails it not something that God has no interest in. God has an interest in everything that happens in this world. Yes, even the holocaust. God had to allow it or would not have happened and believe it or not, even something as awful as that had to somehow fit into God's plans and purposes. If anyone believes there are things that can go on in this world outside of God's plans and purposes, then they are closer to Deism than they are Christianity.

[zman7720000]

Holy cow. Some pretty serious shots out into left field going on here. Nobody here is saying that the evil in the world is God's will, but some seem to be thinking that's what is being said. The point is that God is sovereign and not even the free will of man to do evil or reject God is able to do what it does unless the Lord allows it. It's this whole idea that there are things going on in the world that God is completely independent of. There is nothing at all that falls into that category. If anyone thinks so, they are sorely lacking in Biblical and theological understanding. As I said before, anything that happens in this world is either something God is doing or something God is allowing because it either works into the big picture of his plans or it does not conflict with them. I am not saying God has to bless Petra, but I am saying that whether Petra succeeds or whether Petra fails it not something that God has no interest in. God has an interest in everything that happens in this world. Yes, even the holocaust. God had to allow it or would not have happened and believe it or not, even something as awful as that had to somehow fit into God's plans and purposes. If anyone believes there are things that can go on in this world outside of God's plans and purposes, then they are closer to Deism than they are Christianity.

Exactly right! Could not have said it better myself.

[executioner]

Holy cow. Some pretty serious shots out into left field going on here. Nobody here is saying that the evil in the world is God's will, but some seem to be thinking that's what is being said. The point is that God is sovereign and not even the free will of man to do evil or reject God is able to do what it does unless the Lord allows it. It's this whole idea that there are things going on in the world that God is completely independent of. There is nothing at all that falls into that category. If anyone thinks so, they are sorely lacking in Biblical and theological understanding. As I said before, anything that happens in this world is either something God is doing or something God is allowing because it either works into the big picture of his plans or it does not conflict with them. I am not saying God has to bless Petra, but I am saying that whether Petra succeeds or whether Petra fails it not something that God has no interest in. God has an interest in everything that happens in this world. Yes, even the holocaust. God had to allow it or would not have happened and believe it or not, even something as awful as that had to somehow fit into God's plans and purposes. If anyone believes there are things that can go on in this world outside of God's plans and purposes, then they are closer to Deism than they are Christianity.

Correct. Brent I can't believe you are so far out in left field; I know you have alot of knowledge and experience in this market, but God can & will use anything including the evil works of the devil to bring His Will about and is in control of it all.

[adpetrafan]

Just go read Job.

[zman7720000]

Just go read Job.

John 9:3 is also very good.