just wondering

[brent]

We are talking about different things. Troubles, trials, and the testing of Job have nothing to do with this. I cannot deny that God allows the devil to accomplish things that are key to God doing his. John 9:3 has to do with a physical issue. What does that have to do with this? Come on now. Keep this in context. God's testing has nothing to do with deception.

GOD DOES NOT DECEIVE OR PERVERT HIS OWN TRUTH. GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION. Jesus never sinned to do His work. The Holy Spirit does not lead us to deceive believers and non-believers. The Gospel is not for sale. The Gospel currently packaged for sale is a bastardized, watered down, sexy, nasty smelling offering from an industry, comprised of for-profit bands, businesses, etc.

You guys are misapplying a truth and make it universal, covering all things. I don't buy what you guys believe, and how you apply scripture in this case. Next you are going to tell me that we should open strip clubs to witness to the perverts and strippers. That is what is happening in the CCM industry, and the church for that matter. What would be more scriptural is the Holy Spirit enlightening a prostitute, that girl accepting salvation, and then starting a ministry to reach and deliver other prostitutes. Oz Fox of Styrper is married to such a lady.

How comfortable would you be with a Petra world tour promoted and advertised by a major tobacco and adult beverage company, funded by dirty money?

[rexreed]

I think a couple of the posts were directed at my absurd examples. When Brent gave his opinion of the current state of CCM a couple people took it upon themselves to explain God's will and how it applied to the industry. Why not let Brent give his opinion and let it be? If you work in CCM and feel the need to give a different spin then so be it but it got a little ridiculous.

[zman7720000]

"Hearts are falling left and rightChildren fear this planet's plightFatalistic fears aboundAnd take their toll without a soundBut through the vague uncertaintyComes a bold assurityThis world is under sovereignityDivinely ordered destinyHe holds this world togetherWith the word of His powerSafe within His hands'Til its own appointed hourHe's still got the whole world in His hands tonightAnd only He knows where the sparrow lands tonightAnd nothing in this world can stop His plans tonight'Cause He's still got the whole world in His handsIn His hands tonightHumanistic lies lamentThe holocaust is imminentDoomsday prophets in the newsPredicting who will light the fuseThe fate of His creationIsn't subject to a manThe final consummationIs according to His planHe's still got you, He's still got meIn His hands tonight"

[adpetrafan]

We are talking about different things.

Apparently. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Preacherman777]

Brent is misapplying the things I'm saying. So once again, I will repeat. I am not saying that God puts his blessing or anointing upon sin for the sake of the gospel, though for some strange reason this seems to be the idea that Brent and perhaps Rex are gleaning from what's being said. Brent your example of a prostitute being saved and creating a ministry in the midst of a dirty industry is a perfect example of how God's purposes can and are served regardless of the context and that's exactly what I've been saying. Just because you believe CCM is corrupt, does not mean that God has no place or interest in it, nor does it mean that he can't or won't use it to serve his purposes. Is it the ideal way for things to be done, probably not, but God used Pharaoh for his purposes and he raised up evil nations to punish Israel, so you see, the point is that God is not devoid of interest in things just because of corruption or evil. The Bible is full of examples of such things, so it's really hard for me to understand why this seems so difficult a concept. My problem is not with you saying that CCM is corrupt. I have no great difficulty in accepting that. My problem is with you stating that God has nothing to do with it. There is nothing with which God has nothing to do, because everything, whether good or evil, is bound to serve his plans and purposes. Heck, I even think that God has something to do with TBN and my opinion of them could not be much lower, but God's glory will be served regardless of what they do.

[brent]

Brent is misapplying the things I'm saying. So once again, I will repeat. I am not saying that God puts his blessing or anointing upon sin for the sake of the gospel, though for some strange reason this seems to be the idea that Brent and perhaps Rex are gleaning from what's being said. Brent your example of a prostitute being saved and creating a ministry in the midst of a dirty industry is a perfect example of how God's purposes can and are served regardless of the context and that's exactly what I've been saying. Just because you believe CCM is corrupt, does not mean that God has no place or interest in it, nor does it mean that he can't or won't use it to serve his purposes. Is it the ideal way for things to be done, probably not, but God used Pharaoh for his purposes and he raised up evil nations to punish Israel, so you see, the point is that God is not devoid of interest in things just because of corruption or evil. The Bible is full of examples of such things, so it's really hard for me to understand why this seems so difficult a concept. My problem is not with you saying that CCM is corrupt. I have no great difficulty in accepting that. My problem is with you stating that God has nothing to do with it. There is nothing with which God has nothing to do, because everything, whether good or evil, is bound to serve his plans and purposes. Heck, I even think that God has something to do with TBN and my opinion of them could not be much lower, but God's glory will be served regardless of what they do.

I did not say God doesn't use the music, or the people who make the music. I am saying that the business is man made, not God ordained, and that the whole thing is driven my the market, what it wants and what it can afford. The market determined that Petra was not viable when they gave up, just as the market dictates all changes. But the message, music, etc continues. The people used are replaceable. The Gospel is the only thing that is timeless. Music is generational, cultural, etc. That is the point. The message and God's will does not stop with any man or group of men.

[Preacherman777]

Well, now that I'll agree with, but I would still say that God may very well have a vested interest in using these people (Petra) and although they are not required for his plans and purposes to be fulfilled, if God wanted to raise them up to be huge again, he could make that happen in spite of the market and even if he doesn't do that, it doesn't mean he isn't active in using them, even if on a small scale. The bottom line being that the market does not rule God.

[Mountain Man]

My only point was that it's absurd to say that Petra's success is due to "God's hand being on them", as if his hand was not also on the many other Christian acts that have fallen by the wayside over the years. Too many people mistake worldly success for God's approval.

[Preacherman777]

Were people really saying that though or were they just saying that is part of why they are still around? I don't mean to say that means that God's hand wasn't on anyone who is not still around because those who are not still around may not be around for various reasons. I don't believe God's hand being on someone can be measured by standards of worldly success. The hand of God can just as easily be on preacher who speaks to only a couple dozen people a Sunday as it may be on someone like Billy Graham. I think such things depend on God desire for how to use those who serve him. This is really what 1 Cor. 12:20-26 is about when it says,

"20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

This passage uses the human body to make a point about the church. There are parts that seem greater and parts that seem lesser, but all are as they are by God's design and those parts that seem weaker are the ones that ought to have special honor while the parts that seem greater do not need it. All in all, it's not some competition, though we in our worldly ways of thinking often make seem as though it were.

Therefore, it is my belief that as long as the guys in Petra are out to serve God with sincere hearts, God's hand will be on them, just as it has been on many others and for any of them, how big or small their ministries may be at any given time is really up to God. I think the weakness for many of us is in thinking too much of man's abilities and too little of God's.

[brent]

Therefore, it is my belief that as long as the guys in Petra are out to serve God with sincere hearts, God's hand will be on them, just as it has been on many others and for any of them, how big or small their ministries may be at any given time is really up to God. I think the weakness for many of us is in thinking too much of man's abilities and too little of God's.

God does absolutely nothing without man. Who did God create to live here? Us. Who did he make a Way for? Us. Who is supposed to be the hands and feet of Christ? We are. Who is fulfilling the great commission? We are. Who makes the economy happen. We do. God is not doing all of this alone. We have the choice to serve God or not, to be good stewards or not. God is visible to the world through creation, and us doing our thing. God is not playing those instruments on stage, or booking the band, or managing, or producing, or writing, etc. People are doing it FOR God. God is not making people buy music. That is retarded. People are doing that for various reasons, because of their personal tastes, etc. If the people don't like a band, it goes away. There is nothing wrong with that. It is how music has changed from generation to generation. Thank God! I do not want to be forced into 50s music. God allows us personal preference. Personal preference is what it is.

[Mountain Man]

Were people really saying that though or were they just saying that is part of why they are still around? I don't mean to say that means that God's hand wasn't on anyone who is not still around because those who are not still around may not be around for various reasons.

I was responding to a statement made earlier in the thread. The OP asked why Petra is still around while other groups aren't, and someone said it was because God's hand was on them which I felt unfairly implicated the other music acts that were mentioned.

That was my only point.

[rexreed]

I still say grunge killed the rock and roll that most Petra fans liked.

[Preacherman777]

Brent, I think the discussion has become pointless. You are either unable or unwilling to see the point I am making as you keep mischaracterizing what I am saying. God uses men but God makes nations rise and fall, so I really don't think the music industry is beyond his pay grade. It seems to me that you think much too little of God, but maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so like I said, probably best to let it go.

[executioner]

I've agreed with Preacher throughout this post because I see him taking & talking about the Godly view in this; the thing that I fail to understand is Brent's point of view on the "market because up until the last few posts he seems to leave God out of the equation all together. He made it seem that the market has complete control over CCM and there is nothing God can do about it; which we all know that God is all powerful.

[executioner]

I still say grunge killed the rock and roll that most Petra fans liked.

True, when music history looks back the 90's will be left out of the conversation.