Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

[executioner]

Even in the 80's he was angry about something.

I think that's when Camp was called the Keith Green with theology. There's nothing wrong with a little righteous anger, but I think there's been a definite turn in his anger recently, for the worse.

I saw him in concert a couple of times in the 80's and he was preaching the nonprofit give a can good thing throughout each show, and I left both shows thinking the Gospel was not displayed and this guy has a chip on his shoulder about someone or something. It just feels like someone in CCM did him wrong and he couldn't let it go. As an artist I liked his stuff before that but after that his attitude and demeaner just turned me off from his ministry.

[Preacherman777]

Personally, I think there needs to be a balance. While much of CCM seems to have abandoned that Sacred Trust that Petra sang about on Jekyll and Hyde, there is a place for addressing the issues that trouble the human soul. God made us feeling people, capable of wide range of emotions. There are plenty of scriptures that address our worth to God. So I have no problem with seeing such things addressed in Christian music.

I find the comparison to Keith Green interesting. Keith promoted the glory of God big time, but also dealt with things that troubled the human soul and in the process challenged Christians to be better and go the extra mile for God. I never saw Keith as angry, just extremely passionate and zealous for God. A very feeling person who felt grieved by the apathy of Christians toward their Biblical callings. I suppose their were those who may have felt he didn't have theology because he wasn't a Calvinist, but I'd take his version of Christianity and serving God any day over 99% of what I see in the rest of Christianity.

[executioner]

EXE - what do you think of his theses? While I'm disappointed with the tone of his blog, I enjoy(ed) those last two Camp albums because they have meat to them. Who here has the Piper quote in their sig? Another song "Abandoned to God" lists a few heros of faith - how many CCM songs mention Athanasius or Tertullian?

Off the Desiring God album there's a song called "Not about us" - where he again throws out the line "God is my girlfriend"

It's not about us, it's all about Him.
It's not about my pain, my child within.
It's all about His glory, it's all about His praise
It's all about the worship due His Holy Name.

Has worship become nothing more than
my own self gratification?
Do we pray to the LORD or some Hertz rent-a-god
to bail us out of hard situations?

He's not the man upstairs you know
He's not your higher power you know
He's not a therapist for your soul
And we dare not re-create Him into our own image.

We crank up the band, we sing shout and dance,
Is it praise or just recreation?
Another god-is-my-girlfriend, a song of romance
Just a carnal celebration.

It's not about us feeling blessed
It's not about our needs being met
It's not some new experience
He's a Holy God who won't be robbed of His glory.

God won't share His glory with anything else
When He alone's not worshipped it's just we're all about ourselves.
---
To tie this back into Petra, didn't Camp do some BGV for a Petra album or two? What CCM hates about CCM is one reason why Petra was left in the dust. Biblical integrity in music was no longer seen as essential.

There's also a great All-Star United Song, "Song of the Year" ... Holy, Holy, worthy worthy, something, something, something that rhymes with Jesus' name....

Don't be offended by what I'm going to say, but I don't read anybody's theses; I do not look or read any theology books written by theologians like Martin Luther, Calvin or others. I get in the Bible and get my beliefs from the understanding of the word of God.
When I'm debating with someone here or other places I bring all my facts from the Bible. There are times here on the other topics thread that some will debate religion and beliefs and all they do is bring up well I've read this book or theses and they continue quoting these books and theses' but they never bring up the word of God. I choose to stay away from ones that use things of this nature instead of the Word of God.
Something I remember from Camp's concerts were that the bible was used in small amounts and when it was used I thought he was somewhat off base. He was not shy about giving his opinion and he just seem to have a vendetta against CCM and some artists.
In the late 80's there was an article in CCM or Christianity Today about Camp and he said something along the lines that he either tried out or was considered for the lead singer position of Petra, but I'm not sure if those statements by him were true. I never remember seeing anyone in Petra say anything to confirm this. He did sing on Washes Whiter Than, but I'm not sure in what capacity.

[executioner]

Personally, I think there needs to be a balance. While much of CCM seems to have abandoned that Sacred Trust that Petra sang about on Jekyll and Hyde, there is a place for addressing the issues that trouble the human soul. God made us feeling people, capable of wide range of emotions. There are plenty of scriptures that address our worth to God. So I have no problem with seeing such things addressed in Christian music.

I find the comparison to Keith Green interesting. Keith promoted the glory of God big time, but also dealt with things that troubled the human soul and in the process challenged Christians to be better and go the extra mile for God. I never saw Keith as angry, just extremely passionate and zealous for God. A very feeling person who felt grieved by the apathy of Christians toward their Biblical callings. I suppose their were those who may have felt he didn't have theology because he wasn't a Calvinist, but I'd take his version of Christianity and serving God any day over 99% of what I see in the rest of Christianity.

Preacherman,

We have a misunderstanding here Mathew and I are talking about Steve Camp(at least I am).
I really enjoyed Keith Green's Ministry especially since I lived in East Texas at the time and went to the same private school as his daughter Dawn. She was somewhat older then me(probably 3-4 yrs) but I do remember her from my 2 older sisters.

[Shell]

I don't think there is anything wrong with a bit of righteous anger either, but it should be directed against sin. I liked some of his albums, but I always had the feeling he was ticked off at someone or something too. There may be a place for that, but it's not a good way to reach people. It's okay to be angry sometimes, but hanging onto it or approaching people in an angry way is destructive.

[Preacherman777]

There was a reference made comparing Steve Camp to Keith Green as him being like a Keith Green only with theology. That's what I was addressing.

[Preacherman777]

I really enjoyed Keith Green's Ministry especially since I lived in East Texas at the time and went to the same private school as his daughter Dawn. She was somewhat older then me(probably 3-4 yrs) but I do remember her from my 2 older sisters.

Just thought I'd mention too that Keith's daughters are Rachael and Rebekah, and would be around 27 and 28 years old.

[p-freak]

In the late 80's there was an article in CCM or Christianity Today about Camp and he said something along the lines that he either tried out or was considered for the lead singer position of Petra, but I'm not sure if those statements by him were true. I never remember seeing anyone in Petra say anything to confirm this. He did sing on Washes Whiter Than, but I'm not sure in what capacity.

Steve Camp actually sang background vocals on Come And Join Us, not on Washes Whiter Than. I don't know how he got involved. He probably knew some people who knew some people.

[Preacherman777]

The original quote was by John F. MacArthur:
http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/875430

There was a reference made comparing Steve Camp to Keith Green as him being like a Keith Green only with theology. That's what I was addressing.

The original quote was by John F. MacArthur:
http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/875430

Well, there ya go. That would explain it.

[CatNamedManny]

Those "Not About Us" lyrics remind me of me not all that long ago. It's an attitude I've come to regret and believe is unhelpful. Maybe Steve Camp was able to better segregate his attitude about worship from his attitude about the worshippers than I was, but it seems to carry quite a bit of judgment about the attitudes of other Christians and their relationship with God, something I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable expressing or supporting ... at least not anymore. I've been there; it's not a fun place to be. You spend all your time looking at other people and clucking your tongue, and no time at all looking at God and seeing what he wants you to see.

[Preacherman777]

Ok. But don't shoot the messenger. I'm only repeating what I've heard others say about Camp & Green.

I wasn't trying to shoot the messenger. I was just giving my thoughts on what I was reading. Sorry if anything I said came across as a personal attack. It sure wasn't meant that way.

[executioner]

I really enjoyed Keith Green's Ministry especially since I lived in East Texas at the time and went to the same private school as his daughter Dawn. She was somewhat older then me(probably 3-4 yrs) but I do remember her from my 2 older sisters.

Just thought I'd mention too that Keith's daughters are Rachael and Rebekah, and would be around 27 and 28 years old.

Well I was only maybe 7-8 yrs old at the time, maybe it was a niece or something, but I do know it was someone that was related to Keith. He had a huge amount of property in Lindale(just outside of Tyler) that they used for LDM. Dallas Holm lives not too far away from the property.

[executioner]

Don't be offended by what I'm going to say, but I don't read anybody's theses; I do not look or read any theology books written by theologians like Martin Luther, Calvin or others. I get in the Bible and get my beliefs from the understanding of the word of God.

No offense taken, and please don't be offended by what I have to say in reply: we are midgets standing on the shoulders of giants. Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Athanasius, etc ... are much brighter, deeper thinkers than I could ever hope to be. While still only human, and each one has their blind spots with respect to Scripture, some have a more comprehensive Biblical vision and walk with God than others. By being familiar with the saints of the past, one advantage is that I'm forced to grow in areas I might others overlook.

Also we're not the first generation of Christians. Again in knowing the past we can avoid their errors so as not to repeat their mistakes, and at the same time benefit from how they handled various issues. as it says in Ecclesiastes - nothing new under the sun.

And before you accuse me of being a closet Roman Catholic with an appeal to Scripture and Tradition, I'm thoroughly protestant. I agree with the Reformers, on the WORD alone. Yet the WORD is never alone is it? Luther said unless he were convinced by reason and Scripture. Then the charismatics among us want experience in there.

But yes, I'll agree with you, nothing compares with God's word. But that doesn't mean the works and writings of others are useless. If so, why listen to Petra?

Yes I listen to Petra for the biblical content, but I also listen to them for the great rock they put out; too me its entertainment more than anything. I will never use Petra to replace Scripture like some do.

On the contrary the WORD alone should always be it and should be enough for any Christian to do the right thing and stand. Luther said this but to be frank I don't care what Luther said; I care about what God says. The only mediation we need between us and God is Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Yes its good to learn of Christians of the past in seeing where they made their mistakes and we can learn from them, but so many times there are threads here quoting these men's thinking and/or beliefs, but nothing is ever quoted with Scripture; When I see this I get the impression that we are putting our faith into these men of God and not God.
I do believe God does give us men of God like this to use as examples in our walk of faith and to help us also in our walk of faith, but we need to realize they are not the all that ends all.

[separateunion]

Don't be offended by what I'm going to say, but I don't read anybody's theses; I do not look or read any theology books written by theologians like Martin Luther, Calvin or others. I get in the Bible and get my beliefs from the understanding of the word of God.

Do you go to church?

[executioner]

Don't be offended by what I'm going to say, but I don't read anybody's theses; I do not look or read any theology books written by theologians like Martin Luther, Calvin or others. I get in the Bible and get my beliefs from the understanding of the word of God.

Do you go to church?

Yes, Why do you ask?