Third Classic Petra Album - All New Songs

[Mountain Man]

I think it's goofy to be blaming WUC anyway for the decline. The revolving door and the real decline in popularity began with No Doubt, not Wake Up Call. Wake Up Call was an excellent album with the full team still intact. It may have been a little more mellow overall than some would have prefered, but it was still an excellent product. The same can not be said IMO of No Doubt, which really only had a few bright spots.

I think the decline started when Bob Hartman semi-retired from the band. People had a lot of trouble accepting Petra without its "elder statesman". Even though he was just as involved in the studio as he ever was, the public image was that it was a "new" Petra, and the band seemed to lack focus with every subsequent album featuring new members and a new musical style instead of just sticking with the straight ahead arena rock the fans wanted. The scrap over Louie Weaver's firing lost them quite bit of good will, too, and even the excellent Jekyll & Hyde, the album fans had been begging for for years, couldn't pull them out of the hole they had dug themselves into.

But dang it all, they're still my favorite band (yes, even during the "dark ages" between Wake-up Call and Jekyll & Hyde).

[bjh]

I think it's goofy to be blaming WUC anyway for the decline. The revolving door and the real decline in popularity began with No Doubt, not Wake Up Call. Wake Up Call was an excellent album with the full team still intact. It may have been a little more mellow overall than some would have prefered, but it was still an excellent product. The same can not be said IMO of No Doubt, which really only had a few bright spots.

Goofy or not, it's all opinion anyway... isn't it? Unfortunately, opinion, not sound quality, drives sales of albums.

With WUC, a different producer comes in. Was he well-established? Definitely. I'm not familiar with Brown Bannister's recent work, but he was one of the best in the industry. I won't argue that. However, before (not with) the next album (No Doubt) both keyboardist and touring guitarist change (album sales drive concert ticket sales which drive new album sales, too) ... yes, I know, Bob was still the studio guitarist for No Doubt, but I digress.... All that to say... WUC (and then, No Doubt) was a different sound than people were used to. Surely you've heard the adage, "don't try to fix what has never been broke"?

Sort of tied into this and perhaps an item for further discussion...did the decline begin before WUC... as Brent suggests? I was not able to make it to the Farewell tour, but from the CD and video, it was interesting to hear which albums were/weren't represented (and how well). Wouldn't that indicate the better albums (at least to some extent)? But we're getting way off the topic of producers, I guess.

Musically/sonically, I'm not sure of the difference between the two terms in the context of making an album. I'm not saying WUC was wrong (but maybe wrong for the time?)... it was different.

Anyways... back to the topic - Producer for the new album. I'm going to backtrack here... Maybe Brown Bannister should be given a shot at it if he's available... one can't (or, perhaps, "shouldn't") argue his credentials. It's one thing coming off the highs (IMO, remember) of Beyond Belief and Unseen Power, but we are a long time removed from those albums. No matter what, I am looking forward to the new albums, and it is nice to have something current to talk about.

[zak89]

I suspect that more than likely the production team will stay the same for all these albums anyway - but who knows? At any rate, I haven't heard outright complaints about the production of BTTR, yet - though no raving from the engineering nerds (believe me, I'd love to be one myself!) either. To my inexperienced ears it appears to have been spared from the dreaded loud-mastering J&H featured (although TBH I thought it worked out reasonably well for that album).

Regarding the Farewell set, I'll quote myself from the track-list thread:

My feeling regarding the Farewell setlists was that Petra wanted to make a statement that "No, we haven't been doing nothing since '91" - they overemphasized some of the more recent albums (PP2, Revival, and J&H) to sort of "push" the idea that they were still a modern band. So songs like "This is The Noise...", "Amazing Grace", "Show Your Power", "I Waited..", and at least two or three tunes from J&H were staples. Whereas many of the classic songs were jammed into a couple medleys with some exceptions ("Beyond Belief", "Judas' Kiss", etc).

Ben's absolutely right about the success/quality equation - it's ironic that the albums that are the most despised by the recording geeks for their production are Petra's most successful (the '87-'91 Elefante albums). Obviously the average listener didn't find the sound "muddy". I'm not great at deciphering production quality, but I do notice a distinct clarity and "realness" in WUC - yet it really seems to have been lost to the "dark ages" of Petra's history - only one song from that album made it to the Farewell setlist, and only in a medley (Midnight Oil).

[executioner]

I feel like the songs on WUC are just as strong if not better then anything off of UP. I liked UP but compared to the ones before it lacked something; it was an album that lacks staying power in the changer. The Sonics on WUC was how a Petra album should have always sounded like.
You will notice that to this day unlike anything else that Petra has done it doesn't sound dated.

[zak89]

Hmm... I agree WUC has some timelessness - it does compare well to modern albums (especially 'Just Reach Out'). However, I think God Fixation is the most 'modern' sounding album I've heard from Petra - not the kind of modern I like, but the kind that I think should have gotten them massive air-play. Unfortunately, as it turned out, they turned off the fans, and still didn't get the air-play. Tough love from the CCM radio industry.

I still like Unseen Power - overall it's not a top one, but I love SU - a great song to kick-off the 'rock-medley'. There where several tracks on that album that I think got underrated.

Moving back towards the original topic - do we know who's writing the new songs (probably not)? I sincerely hope it's Bob - I'm not sure I'd even want to hear an album written primarily by someone else. Although contributions from the other members would be cool - John Lawry has written some awesome songs, as has Greg. Anything by them would still count as bona-fide Petra IMHO - of course I'm not too crazy about a bunch of redone solo stuff by Greg - a couple would be ok, but I'd rather he write something new!

Then again, it's easy for me to say "Guys! Write better songs!"

[brent]

Why all the beating around the bush, let's just have Brent do it.

Now THAT is funny.

[rexreed]

I'm glad to hear some folks stand up for the Elefante albums. I too was less than impressed with WUC when I first heard it. Still don't care for much, but yes, it sounds great. Just Reach Out is oneo f the greatest Petra songs IMO. Honestly there were a couple songs that tried to tank Unseen power. We all know which two I am referring.

I can't wait for some fresh Petra material, real honest to goodness new material.

[Preacherman777]

I would tend to agree that weakness in the songs themselves initiated with UP. Hand On My Heart should never have seen the light of day on a Petra album and there are a couple others that didn't do much for me either, but mostly, the album was a decent follow up to BB and straight on thru WUC I had no real complaints, but I knew right away when they released No Doubt that we were headed for trouble. Save for a few songs, the album was just weak and way too different. It bothered me as a die hard Petra fan and I knew for the less committed, it would likely drive them away. If they had come up with something like J&H right after that, maybe they could have saved it, but instead they wandered through a desert of mostly mediocre, moderate to mellow offerings, for several albums and the few gems we got along the way were only enough to retain the true die hards.

[zak89]

Maybe this is blasphemous, but "Hand on my Heart" has kinda grown on me. I still don't like it as a Petra song, but it is certainly a very interesting, and even catchy composition.

Although to be honest, I tend to compartmentalize the song - almost like it's another singer with John filling in parts as a "guest vocalist".

[brent]

We must remember that Petra was told by its labels to go for the radio audience. We must remember that concerts sales were WAAAAY off. By the time Lonnie and Pete hit the band, you could get Petra and three other bands, lights and sound for 8k (before haggling), which was CHEAP. Petra was drawing about 1200 per show by the early to mid 90s. They had transitioned from an A list Christian artist to a B or C. They needed to do something because the audience changed, the music scene changed and the band changed.

It is real easy for us to say that Petra started to flop when they changed from rock/Christian metal-lite to rock/pop rock. But they had no choice. There was no market for the dated E brothers stuff. Brown Bannister was a blessing, because he captured the Petra rock band element and made it appealing to the masses. He provided a mix that would stand the test of time, much unlike the E brothers stuff. It was a return to the roots that JDB planted.

Remember, Nirvana killed hair metal, arena rock, etc. Probably the only good point that Lichens had was that Nirvana changed the scene and was a good hint as to which way they should go. John said no to the grunge scene thing. While some of us would have bought it, more soccer moms listening to radio probably purchased the radio stuff.

Petra was really condemned no matter which road they chose.

[Preacherman777]

Sure, it was a lean time for for arena rock, but making those changes didn't help them any and probably just served to make things worse. However, I'm sure you are right about being pressured to do it.

[executioner]

Sure, it was a lean time for for arena rock, but making those changes didn't help them any and probably just served to make things worse. However, I'm sure you are right about being pressured to do it.

I agree Preacherman; Petra should have stuck with who brought them to the Dance. If only they would have listen to their own message.

[executioner]

After going back and rereading some of this thread, I've come to the reasoning that I think it would be in CP's best interest to keep everything in house like with what they did with BTTR. When you get outside producers and record labels dictating what needs to be done then I think that will lead to less than stellar albums.
As of now at least we know that the five members are putting out what they want to do.

[brent]

After going back and rereading some of this thread, I've come to the reasoning that I think it would be in CP's best interest to keep everything in house like with what they did with BTTR. When you get outside producers and record labels dictating what needs to be done then I think that will lead to less than stellar albums.
As of now at least we know that the five members are putting out what they want to do.

I appreciate the thought, but ponder this: Most artists on the charts do not write their own music/lyrics completely. Most of them have some type of help, guidance and dispensers of reality. Artists generally have some good ideas. But there comes a time when the well runs dry. Ideas begin to sound tired and repetitious. Petra has never been without assistance from JDB on. Yes, artists like these guys do know a thing or two. Bob recently told me via email that he doesn't know what it takes to make a song for radio. He just does what he does. My point is not that these guys are completely dry. My point is that everyone needs someone to help forge the production so that it remains on task and commercially viable.

[Preacherman777]

I have to doubt that the money is there at this point for them to be shopping for any top notch producers and I'm not sure that commercial viability is really foremost on their minds. I think Bob realized that ship had pretty much sailed when he retired Farewell Petra. I suspect this is more a labor of love for the fans and for them to just enjoy what they're doing on their own terms. Maybe just to see what God will do with it. I mean I know they want to sell they're music, so yes, it has to viable in that respect, but I'd be really surprised if they think they're ever gonna see the heights of their glory years under either John or Greg. Never say never I guess, and maybe I'm wrong and that is what they're looking for, but I doubt it.

I'll really be interested to see what they come up with on this album of all new material. That will really tell us what they can do on their own.