BTTR Must Be Selling Well

[brent]

SU, are you THAT STUPID? REALLY? Sorry this has to get personal, but I have never heard so much irrational, side stepping, justification in all of my life. The bible is plain, if it is not yours, do not covet it, do not lust after it, do not take it. PERIOD. It does not matter what it is. It does not matter how you take it. Speeding has nothing to do with morals or stealing. Leave that out of it and stay focused. If you drive to the physical address of a brick and mortar house and stick a CD in your pocket, or if you go the electronic address of someone's computer in their house and download it, you are not paying for it, the artist is not being paid for it, and God is going to allow the devourer to come reap a bunch of crap in your life. THAT is what would freak me out.

It doesn't matter what the law is, because laws are bought and sold everyday, to suit somebody. Even if they were not bought and sold, the laws of a country are suited for them and not God and His Word. They never supersede God and His Word. Consider these passages:

1 Timothy 5:17-19 (Amplified Bible)
17 Let the elders who perform the duties of their office well be considered doubly worthy of honor [and of adequate [a]financial support], especially those who labor faithfully in preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain, and again, The laborer is worthy of his hire.

In other words, pay those that minister to you. Pay them in the church, pay them as they pass through, pay them when they make a commercially sold media for profit. If you do not pay them, they will go away. How about that. SU helped kill Petra. How do you like those apples?

1 Corinthians 9:4-14 (Amplified Bible)
7 [Consider this:] What soldier at any time serves at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat any of the fruit of it? Who tends a flock and does not partake of the milk of the flock? 8 Do I say this only on human authority and as a man reasons? Does not the Law endorse the same principle? 9 For in the Law of Moses it is written, You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the corn. Is it [only] for oxen that God cares? 10 Or does He speak certainly and entirely for our sakes? [Assuredly] it is written for our sakes, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher ought to thresh in expectation of partaking of the harvest. 11 If we have sown [the seed of] spiritual good among you, [is it too] much if we reap from your material benefits? 12 If others share in this rightful claim upon you, do not we [have a still better and greater claim]? However, we have never exercised this right, but we endure everything rather than put a hindrance in the way [of the spread] of the good news (the Gospel) of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those men who are employed in the services of the temple get their food from the temple? And that those who tend the altar share with the altar [in the offerings brought]? 14 [On the same principle] the Lord directed that those who publish the good news (the Gospel) should live (get their maintenance) by the Gospel.

This verse reinforces the latter, and ties in the spiritual reaping of the offerings and harvests with the physical.

Galatians 6:6 (Amplified Bible)
6 Let him who receives instruction in the Word [of God] share all good things with his teacher [contributing to his support].

Torrents with copyright protected material are illegal everywhere. Plain and simple. There are some that exist for a while, until due process has transpired and then they are shut down. It costs money for everyone. Right now, people will be able to get away with it, because of the economy and the status of our government. Torrents are a cause for problems with national security, so some nations are not so nice when prosecuting. All of this mess will just eventually limit access to the computer, which is where the USA is headed right now with the next gen, internet2. Content and access to content on the web resembles the fights we will see (if we live that long) over content and access to content in our personal minds and bodies. This is just laying the groundwork to the government, via corporations, being able to choose content, nickel and dime us for it, and make the common access slow and crappy. Let the people have day old bread, while the elite have cake.

My work is on torrents and I am smoothpissedoff about it. If I had been paid for all of the physical albums stolen in South America, Brazil, etc, and all of the albums downloaded, I would have had money to pay for another one and have a little for profit. One torrent alone cost PDC $50k. So don't you freakin' tell me that I don't deserve the money I worked for, and paid in advance to Schlitt, Weaver, Bailey, Lawry, and all the rest of the guys, because some law is old and not worded to include modern terms for things. It is sad that "Christians" have become so ignorant to believe that taking from another person, Christians even, is ok, because they are led by the nose, by the government no less. They would rather dance around truth while on the dime of the Christian musician.

[brent]

I'm not changing any definitions. The definition is being changed by those who claim "intellectual property rights" and that taking something intangible is somehow equivalent to walking into a store, taking it off the shelf and walking out the door with it.

It is equivalent, when the product the artist is selling is the music tracks themselves and not the packaging. The music is the product, the music is what we make money on, the music is what we own.

The CD is considered the physical license by the law. Since CD sales are slowing for the major labels (not for indies, they are increasing), the laws will change to reflect a different thing, all at the expense of the non-RIAA indie labels and musicians I assume. We indies do not have RIAA lawyers buying hookers and blow for the politicians in DC. We have self funded special interest groups that are patronized and brushed off.

[executioner]

You are stealing plain and simple and stealing is a sin. There are no grey areas in God's eyes, its all black & white too him.

[blayze5150]

Everything going on in the music indusrty as a whole scares me right now. You have 1)People stealing music on free download sites making it very difficult for artists to make a living from CD sales and 2) Programs like American Idol changing the way we veiw artists as if all music should look and sound the same. These changes are not for the better. I refuse to illegally download anything, personally, because I just don't feel right about it. I especially feel this way about Petra's music. Petra, along with Stryper, Steve Taylor, Degarmo & Key, and a few others were very important to my teenage years. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be who I am today without them. Even though I do not know them personally, that makes them family. I cannot take money out of their pocket and feel good about it. It's very hard nowadays for a musician to make ends meet. Yeah, you've got the superstars with the 20 expensive cars and the mansions flaunting everything they have, but you also have the majority of musicians who hold a second job to make ends meet. According to his website, Tracey Ferrie couldn't even afford to take time off his job to participate in the last Stryper tour. I don't see how anyone can justify stealing the work of these individuals via internet. It's just wrong.

[SCJ-7]

"Smell the burning powder?
There's danger in the air
A voice from deep inside is telling you, 'you must beware'
Then enemy is watching
Every step you take "...

[BForm]

I find it interesting that those who claim an issue is fuzzy always seem to grab the most convenient, self promoting position and run with it.

So I guess the same things goes for software? If a company spends a million dollars to develop a software package I have a right to a free copy as long as I copy it and don't buy a packaged version?

Brent, I truly am sorry that your group has been so severely raped by so many "christian" thieves. Stay positive brother. God sees all and there will come a day......

[Jan]

[quote="bakersfieldpethead. Plus, I'm an artist, I've recorded several albums, been signed to a recording contract, had singles on the radio and have toured. ....[/quote]

What singles??

[Preacherman777]

Personally, as an artist, I just offer my music for free. There are ways you can buy it (Itunes, CD Baby and such) but those were set up before I decided to do this. I was always inspired by Keith Green and the way he offered his music for whatever people could afford, even if it was nothing. Therefore, I do the same thing now. Anyone can go to my website and download the songs for free. If people want a CD, I request a donation to cover the cost, but again, it's whatever people can afford.

However, you see, this is my personal decision and there are other artists who have control of their music and choose to offer it for free. That's great if they choose to do that, but other artists and or record companies don't choose to do that and in that case I think that needs to be respected. It's simply the right thing to do. For me, if I'm in it for the ministry, I don't feel right about charging for the gospel. Yes, the worker is worth his wages, but we don't charge people to come to church, we pass a plate and that's the way I prefer to handle my music. Not everybody feels that way and I don't condemn those who are ok with charging for the gospel (Obviously, or wouldn't have anything to do with Petra) and I don't feel that my morality on the subject is by any means the last word, it's just what's right for me and my conscience, but I'm not gonna push that on anyone else.

Anyway, the long and short of this is that if you want free music, stick with those who offer it free, otherwise pay for it. To do anything less I believe is hurtful to your fellow man. After all, why is stealing wrong? It's wrong because it's dishonest and it hurts your fellow man.

[rexreed]

Another point to consider: if downloading media is illegal, how come so many torrent sites are allowed to exist without being shut down?

I'm not so sure they are "being allowed." Where I live there is an average of one bank robbery a day. Sometimes they are armed, sometimes not, but they are breaking the law. Often times they are never caught, this does not mean they are being allowed

[knotodiswrld]

It's not comparable to having my cabinets stolen because I cannot replace those cabinets.

Nor can the artist replace the revenue you have stolen by illegally downloading their work rather than purchasing it legally.

And even if you hold to that, you're not really ripping off the artist, which is what most of you have been claiming. You're ripping off the distributor and the store it's being sold in.

Oh, I get it now. It's okay to steal from large corporations and big businesses!! I see. So, stealing from your neighbor is wrong, but stealing from Wal-mart or Sony is okay. Got it!

So if I went to the factory where the CDs are made and stole one from there ... that would be okay too, right?

As I've already stated, "intellectual property rights" is a fuzzy area. It's not black and white.

Actually, it's not. It's pretty black and white. What you're advocating is blatantly illegal.

Just because you or the US government says it's stealing doesn't make it so.

Ah, I see. I wonder what the Apostle Paul would have said?

Romans 1:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

RO 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Just because artists, record companies, etc. want the law, that doesn't make it any more moral than if I want the government to make a law saying that people over 60 can't drive.

So you're saying the artists shouldn't have a say over who can have copies of their work? Really? Listen, man. If I can't control who uses my software, I just won't write any. End of story.

I say the only people who can use my software are people who pay me for it. Do I not have the right to say that?!?!?! If I can't say that, I'll do something else for a living. Plenty of artists are the same way. If they can't get paid, they just won't produce.

First of all, there are lots of artists out there who encourage people to download their music for free,

So, the fact that Sun Microsystems allows you to download their office suite for free means that it's okay to download Microsoft's office suite for free, right?

Another point to consider: if downloading media is illegal, how come so many torrent sites are allowed to exist without being shut down?

There are lots of illegal activities going on in cyberspace. Why aren't they all shut down? It's easier said than done.

"Pirating" music from the internet is still undefined as truly legal or illegal. If it was illegal, more people would be prosecuted for it (rather than some odd person every 3 months) and the industry would have a much easier time shutting down any site that was "illegal". However, it's an extremely complicated issue that isn't as simple as being branded stealing.

Where do you get this? It is not extremely complicated. It very plain and simple. But its also hard to prosecute.


I am so glad that my art is software and not music. At least I can design my work so that if you aren't supposed to have it, it won't work for you. Frankly, I wish I could design it so that if you weren't supposed to have it, it would reformat your hard drive.

I mean, I probably could but then I'd get slapped with nasty lawsuits for destroying people's lives and businesses.

[brent]

For what it's worth, I am writing a big article about this for a Christian publication. I asked members of Petra, Shout and Bride. They all basically said, "CDs sales are down. Selling downloads are how we survivie. We are to be paid for downloads. Not paying for downloads is wrong. It robs from us and the ministry." When my article is done, I will post a link.

[bakersfieldpethead]

For what it's worth, I am writing a big article about this for a Christian publication. I asked members of Petra, Shout and Bride. They all basically said, "CDs sales are down. Selling downloads are how we survivie. We are to be paid for downloads. Not paying for downloads is wrong. It robs from us and the ministry." When my article is done, I will post a link.

Looking forward to reading it.

[zak89]

Me too - anything Brent says is worth a close look. As we all know, if Brent says it....

Seriously, I've tried to stay out of the line of fire here, but Brent's contributions are probably the most thought-provoking and certainly cogent.

[separateunion]

SU, are you THAT STUPID?

That's right, let that Christian fruit shine. I'm sick of your attitude. You think you're better than everyone else and that your opinion is fact and can't be challenged. Get over yourself and go stuff it.

The bible is plain...do not take it.

That's not what the Bible says, so you're already arguing from a false premise.

If you drive to the physical address of a brick and mortar house and stick a CD in your pocket, or if you go the electronic address of someone's computer in their house and download it, you are not paying for it, the artist is not being paid for it, and God is going to allow the devourer to come reap a bunch of crap in your life. THAT is what would freak me out.

Well, your theology is bad, but I already knew that.

It's not the same. Plain and simple. For one thing, stealing a CD involves other physical properties that are being stolen that aren't related to the music itself such as the tangible CD, the jewel case, the inserts, etc. The music is an intangible that can't be stolen. I'm not sure how having songs on my computer is any different than going to youtube and listening to the song over and over. Or recording what I listen to on the radio. Unless those are somehow crimes now. Either way, I'm not "purchasing" the music or "contributing" to the artist. Which I couldn't afford to do anyways. So, either way, they wouldn't be making money off of me on CD sales.

How about that. SU helped kill Petra. How do you like those apples?

Cute. One problem: I didn't download music until after Petra retired. But keep patting yourself on the back for making faulty assumptions. Problem number two: I've purchased every single new Petra album up through J&H. I plan on purchasing BTTR next week after I get paid. But you're right, I killed Petra. It wasn't the fact that they became stale and obsolete in an ever shrinking market. It was all me.

Torrents with copyright protected material are illegal everywhere. Plain and simple. There are some that exist for a while, until due process has transpired and then they are shut down.

Nope. I've been visiting torrent sites that have been around for 6 or more years. They don't just get "shut down". I've seen a few get wrapped up in litigation, but it's always a murky issue. No one ever completely steps in and say "you're done." The RIAA only goes after someone often enough to try to scare people away from torrents, but they never come out of those settlements with much money because they barely have a leg to stand on. If the laws were clear, the RIAA would be hitting people hard and often. But they don't.

So don't you freakin' tell me that I don't deserve the money I worked for, and paid in advance to Schlitt, Weaver, Bailey, Lawry, and all the rest of the guys, because some law is old and not worded to include modern terms for things. It is sad that "Christians" have become so ignorant to believe that taking from another person, Christians even, is ok, because they are led by the nose, by the government no less. They would rather dance around truth while on the dime of the Christian musician.

Where did I say you didn't deserve any money? Also, I've never listened to PDC, so go take your frustration out on someone else. It has nothing to do with "some old law". It has everything to do with the fact that intellectual property is near impossible to define, nor is it necessarily a God given right. Unfortunately, Western society has distorted the Bible so much that no one really knows what it actually says because they're too busy trying to find Biblical support for the worldview they've already created for themselves.

[SCJ-7]

Petrapeace!