WAY-FM Program Director sounds off

[Michael]

A short article about Petra written by the programming director of WAY-FM:

http://www.al.com/living/huntsvilletime ... xml&coll=1

[crossways]

He makes a good point about "8 year olds being influenced by a modern day Petra". But are the Switchfoots etc. having the same effect?

I know musically they are, but are they ingraining the clear message of the Gospel in their music.

Being in a band, we have been told to "lighten up the message", or to consider singing relevent lyrics that every listener can understand.



I have really struggled to find a balance, but the more I reflect lately on Petras career, the more I don't want a balance. I want to be bold in my faith. You know, the Gospel of Christ IS relevent to every person!

[BForm]

Crossway, I would encourage you to steer clear of the seeker sensitive rout. The statistics are beginning to bare out what many have been fearing all along. That is, that dumbing down the gospel will fill the church with false converts and the witness of the church (saltiness) would be lost. Look at the Barna statistics and it's all coming true.

The Bible is clear that faith would come by hearing the "Preached" word of God, yet Petra is accused of being too preachy. It also says God has chosen to use the foolishness of "preaching" to build His kingdom. Read 1 Corinthians 1 and look at how God has chosen to use the foolish things and methods to confound the wise of this world.

[BForm]

Whenever you hear the words "practical and relevant" that's usually a good sign that the message of the preaching or the lyrics is going to be about how to use Jesus to make your life better. In other words, use Jesus as a condiment to sprinkle on YOUR life to make it more enjoyable.

Yet the message of the gospel is very different. It is that we are desperately wicked and hopeless before God. Scripture makes it clear that our sinfulness before God is a crisis experience where we realize how empty we are before a Holy and righteous God who is still a consuming fire. It is when we become truly repentant that we are then blown away by His mercy.

The modern gospel says "you are sooo special that God wants to make you happy and succesful. Just come to Jesus and He'll make your marriage and job and friendships all work better for you." This fills the church with what Ray Comfort calls sincere people who have never repented of their sin but "just want to give this Jesus thing a try to see if they can get a buzz off of it."

[SolidRockStrength]

Crossways
I agree 100 percent with BForm. Let the power in the word of God drive your music.

[brent]

Crossway, I would encourage you to steer clear of the seeker sensitive rout. The statistics are beginning to bare out what many have been fearing all along. That is, that dumbing down the gospel will fill the church with false converts and the witness of the church (saltiness) would be lost. Look at the Barna statistics and it's all coming true.

The Bible is clear that faith would come by hearing the "Preached" word of God, yet Petra is accused of being too preachy. It also says God has chosen to use the foolishness of "preaching" to build His kingdom. Read 1 Corinthians 1 and look at how God has chosen to use the foolish things and methods to confound the wise of this world.

Ok I have to take issue with this. I think that Christian music can be inclusive to all types. I do agree that the prosperity is a bastardization of the real gospel. It does not work. It ain't workin' for the people in Louisianna, Mississippi, Florida, Africa, Asia, etc. We are in the world, and subject to the world's crap and system. But when it comes to the gospel message of Jesus Christ, I differ.

In my church's case, we turned 15 years old this week. We started with 90, and today have close to 15,000. These are people that were non-religious and/or nominally religious. They may have been raised as a child in a particular tradition, were turned off by the extreme left AND right Christians on TV, etc.

We do not accept "membership" unless they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, by grace through faith, not of works. We have big time descipleship going on. People are reproducing, and taking on ministries of their own. This spring we will start a satelite church across town, and then one in urban KS.

The issue is NOT dumbing down the gospel, because that is so simple that it cannot be dumbed down. So, I take issue with that statement. What? Is the gospel supposed to be hard? Are we reverting back to the days when Catholic priests were the only literate people in a town, and played the people for power and gain? Why make it more difficult than it needs to be.

I look at it like this. It IS about numbers, because numbers ARE PEOPLE. So anyone that is not about numbers is not about people or the great commission. We are to tell ALL. We have a way, and others do as well, that relates the full gospel, the way that Jesus Christ did, in ways that are proven to help people learn and retain.

Here are some numbers for ya. Tha average person forgets the details of a sermon or lecture within 7 minutes. They only put into pactice the most impactful points for about 3 hours. Within 3 days the average human has the ability to forget intensive training in the corporate world, if not repeated with hands on practice daily.

The old ways don't work anymore. This generation is the "lost generation". It is the most socially immature. The age of accountability now is 25 (ask your insurance agent. This is when they figure that you have grown up and drive responsibly.) There is a movement to move that to 35. Record numbers of Grandparents are raising grandchildren. People do not know what they want to do with that God shaped hole in their soul until almost 40.

If churches think that they can keep doing business as usual, then explain why ALL denominations and non denoms are experience loss of membership and attendance. Christianity is becoming non-relative because WE live like a bunch of jacks Mon-Sat. We need to get real, and provide a place where people can come hear a message that hits them between the eyes, in whatever that form needs to be (video, drama, music, small groups, games). LD kids get this kind of treatement. Corporate America too.

[BForm]

[quote="brent

The issue is NOT dumbing down the gospel, because that is so simple that it cannot be dumbed down. So, I take issue with that statement. What? Is the gospel supposed to be hard?

Wow, you read a lot into my statements that wasn't there. No the gospel message is not hard. However, the seeker sensitive movement has become embarrased of the plain teaching of the gospel and is trying to find other ways to do an end around to get people to come to church. I went to one of the very first of it's kind, Willowcreek Community Church. In the first service, the Word was never used. It was a message on the dangers of junk food. This is an example of the "relevant" teaching that is supposed to be interesting to people who are spiritually dead, with the hopes that they will one day hear John 3:16 and be saved. Is this what Jesus did?. What was the point Jesus was making when when he said if they did not believe the prophets they would not believe even if someone came back from the dead? The Word of God is our power, not some new innovative pragmatic method.

[BForm]

[quote=" In my church's case, we turned 15 years old this week. We started with 90, and today have close to 15,000. These are people that were non-religious and/or nominally religious. They may have been raised as a child in a particular tradition, were turned off by the extreme left AND right Christians on TV, etc.

We do not accept "membership" unless they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, by grace through faith, not of works. We have big time descipleship going on. People are reproducing, and taking on ministries of their own. This spring we will start a satelite church across town, and then one in urban KS.

That's great. I've been involved in 5 mega churches in different parts of the country over the past 20 years, all with phenomenal growth. But in the end, what I saw was a lot of people attending because they thought the worship was exciting and we had a lot of programs for the kids. There didn't seem to be much in the way of real change. What we are seeing in the modern church is a lot of people getting saved, and then we lose their kids after they go off to college. At the same time, biblical literacy keeps decreasing as well.

Yes, the gospel is simple, but that's just the beginning. God included the rest of scripture for a reason, and if we continue to buy into this crap that deep theological study is only for the arrogant and lifeless, we will continue to see the churh's light dimming.

[BForm]

[quote="brent"]

Here are some numbers for ya. Tha average person forgets the details of a sermon or lecture within 7 minutes. They only put into pactice the most impactful points for about 3 hours. Within 3 days the average human has the ability to forget intensive training in the corporate world, if not repeated with hands on practice daily.

The old ways don't work anymore.

If by old ways you mean what the church has been doing for the last 50 t0 100 years, I would agree with you. However, if you mean the methods that scripture ordains of preaching the word of God, loving one another (which is what John 17 says will show the world that the Father has sent the Son), teaching deep spiritual truth (remember Paul is said it was because of hardened hearts that more didn't know the scriptures well enough to teach), and letting our light shine in everyday life, then I would have to say you falsely believe in continual revelation whereby modern revelation replaces the written Word of God.

The methods we need to grow the kingdom are all in scripture. In the end, it is the Holy Spirit empowering the preaching of the Word, authenticated by genuine christian living and loving within the body. Without this, everything else is just man's method.

Furthermore, did you ever consider that the reason the average person can't listen and retain a sermon is because they really don't have much interest in Christ afterall? Go to the mission field in Tanzania and Kenya and watch how little children sit and listen through sermons lasting over an hour. There you'll find people hungry for God. In America, you find people hungry for experienc and titillation.

[winterlens]

I think it bears mentioning, too, that this is the trend to be seen as the end approaches: the word is preached less and less and faith-by-feeling more and more.

The gospel isn't complicated, but it's deeper than most people give it credit for (Psalm 98 is a great presentation of the gospel, for example).

[js3971]

I am not posting this to start an argument or to get anyone angry. Anger does not bring about the righteousness of God. The Word also says that to be angry, and sin not.

And I agree with some of the statements in the previous posts, and I also disagree with them in some points. But who cares.

When it comes to anything in life, my opinion or anyone else's simply does not matter. What does matter is the Word of God. It is absolute truth, at all times, no matter what one's opinion is. How it matters, is when I let it matter for me. If I don't, that's between me and God. When I don't do what the Word says, that's sin. Sin is not between me and satan, me and another person, it's between me and God. Now, I might have to ask someone for forgiveness for my sin, yes. But the sin is between me and God.

I think one of the things that has separated Petra for me anyway, is that much of their music contained the Word. Even when I first became a Christian, I could tell a big difference in that regard to a lot of other's music.

Do I listen to other bands besides Petra. Yes, of course I do. Petra from the beginning has always stated that their purpose was to minister. That's one of the reason their ministry has been bigger than any person that has ever been in the band. Some bands since then and now, that may not be their purpose. I don't know. I wasn't their when God gave it to them. And there are some bands in this category I do listen to and they have ministered to me whether they intended to or not. There are some bands along the same line that haven't, and some of them I don't listen to.

Many of us make judgements about things we really don't enough about to making judgements about. In one of the posts earlier someone stated that the prosperity movement is a bastardization of the true gospel because it doesn't work. There was a time in my life when I would have made the same statement or one like it.

But I am now a member in a church that affiliates itself with Rhema Bible College, the college started by Kenneth Hagin. I have a different outlook now, because I know a little more. I know that this post will probably get some replies, and possibly some angry ones or some that will disagree.

But for anyone to make a bold statement like that, they need to have more info on the subject. I have read the books by Hank Hanagraaf, etc. about the Word Faith Movement. It's obvious he doesn't know enough about the movement or it's teachers to make the statements he does.

I use to not like the Osteen's ministry in Houston. But when I know that they take inner city children who can't pay nothing and take them to camps, and give them food, clothes, etc. I see a fruit of the Spirit working here. When they go to these places like Africa, etc., where there is poverty, and minister beyond what any mission orginization has ever done. This is true of their ministry and many preachers and pastors in the word faith movement.

I also find it very interesting that TBN, the station of the Word Faith movement shows and supports Billy Graham and his ministries, and even shows his crusades past and present on their network. I also find it interesting that they have had Petra in their studios before, and that Petra did a song with one of the most well known musicians of the movement, Carman. You can look at John Schlitt's website and find a video recording of Petra on TBN a couple of years ago.

I didn't want to go to the church I go to now. But many things in their teachings lined up with what I believed, and what I believed the Bible was truly teaching. My pastors are more Christ like than anyone I have ever met. They are the most loving, forgiving people I have ever known. They are also the most powerful preachers and teachers I have ever known on any level. Are they perfect or is my church perfect, of course not. Because of the love of these pastors and their teaching me the Word, I am now free of things I could never get free of in other churches.

To the person who made that statement that I referred to, I'm not even angry with what you said. I just think you need to be very careful about making such a statement. Maybe you now a lot about "word-faith" churches, I don't know. All I can tell you is my experience with them. And I can truly say that my church is not a bastard church.

I can say that I'm very thankful for the ministry of Petra and always will be. I was hoping to have gone to that concert in Franklin last week, but was unable to. I will go see their concert in Irving on Nov. 18 and am looking forward to it. I hope that this message board will continue to be a positive forum for Petra's fans and for Christians as well.

[js3971]

One other thing I meant to say in my previous posts is this, and this is something that my current pastor said. I had always believed this, but never could quite put it into these words.

The great commission says for us to go into all the world and make DISCIPLES. It does not say go into all the world and make converts. Many people in seeker churches and word-faith churches are being discipled. Many aren't. But is that the fault of the church or of the people that had just a "conversion" experience. I don't know. Again, that's between that church or that person and God.

[brent]

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

We are all about descipleship. I can't speak for Willow Creek. I do not agree with their dosctrine to begin with. I do know that they have people coming that wouldn't darken the door of a traditional church.

Christ compelled people with thought, using whatever topics were relavant to that particular crowd. If they were thirsty, it was water. If they were hungry, it was food. If they were religious, it was scripture. If it was fishing, it was....you get it. Never once did Christ give a Jimmy Swaggart like, condemnation, angry, exclusive message. Those are the ways of the 40s and 50s. You cannot talk to people like that now.

So, if people come to a mega church, have a salvation experience, then do nothing to grow, then that is on them. That is not on the hands of the minister. That minister can stand before God, having done all to stand, a good steward with his abilities and resources. I know people in small fundamental churches that are going to bust hell wide open. You can't assume that because one church has different tactics than another that there will be any more or less growth.

If the ministry is not doing things to desciple, then that is partially their fault. I say partially because most everyone can read. There are over 500 versions of the Bible readily available. The church is not where people are to be fed. Church is for coorporate worship and support. The growth is on a personal level with Christ, with scriptural mentoring and counsel from teachers, eldors, etc.

Church is not about us. It is not for us. It is to be for God. We have changed church's functions to make them more evangelistic than they should be, instead of doing the work ourselves. No wonder pastors flame out so quickly no days.

[BForm]

[quote="brent"]
Christ compelled people with thought, using whatever topics were relavant to that particular crowd. If they were thirsty, it was water. If they were hungry, it was food. If they were religious, it was scripture. If it was fishing, it was....you get it. Never once did Christ give a Jimmy Swaggart like, condemnation, angry, exclusive message. Those are the ways of the 40s and 50s. You cannot talk to people like that now.

Brent, we aren't as far off as it may have looked. I agree, Christ used current, real earthly issues but always brought it quickly around to their true spiritual need. Consider the woman at the well, was Christ following the typical seeker sensitive model when he quickly confronted her about her living arrangements? Yes, He did it lovingly without flaming rhetoric, but He did confront.

[BForm]

[quote="brent"]

So, if people come to a mega church, have a salvation experience, then do nothing to grow, then that is on them. That is not on the hands of the minister.


It very well may be, but not just the preachers. It may be the whole philosophy of the church. You said worship should be about the Glory of God and I agree. It is the expression of the believers delight in God. However, we also worship when the scriptures are opened before us in a way where we see Christ, and not some 10 step method to personal happiness.

If a pastor orchestrates all kinds of exciting ways to quickly build a mega church without having godly men who are capable of being undershephers, that is a real problem. I can't tell you how often I've heard people say, my church is so big, our Sunday School is really our church. I then ask them, "Do you feel your teacher is qualified to be your Pastor?" The answer is almost always no.

The word Pastor means shepherd. The shepherd knows his sheep intamately, and they know him intimately. If a Pastor grows a mega a church without first growing godly men (Elders) who qualified to tend the flock, teach, and are given to the lost art of hospitality (almost no churches emphasize hospitality anymore, even though most ministry in the New Testament church was done in homes.), then this Pastor is asking for a spiritually week congregation that will not be salt and light but will be a stain on the gospel.