just wondering

[executioner]

God....right. Man has everything to do with who makes it in the CCM world and who doesn't. God does not run the industry. Man does. God is barely allowed to have a say in the modern US church. Why would people think he has an influence in the CCM industry?

Anything is possible if God is for it. Too me your quote puts God in our little humanistic box that we all have in our closets.

[Shell]

I understand what Brent means. The business world/economic system is not a godly one, and there ae some things about CCM that are as bad as or worse than the secular industry. At least the secular industry doesn't try to pretend to be something it's not and hide all the "money is all that matters" junk behind what too often is a Christian facade that has no substance. That doesn't mean God can't use it or that He isn't in control. It means that people left to their own devices screw up and are nothing without God.

My take is there are likely several reasons contributing to Petra's being around so long. It's probably partly because they're doing what they're supposed to do and are trusting God, partly because they want to be, partly because Petra fans want them around.

[Preacherman777]

God is sovereign even over what goes wrong in the world. In all that takes place God is either doing it or he is allowing it, but either way, it serves his purpose.

[executioner]

I understand what Brent means. The business world/economic system is not a godly one, and there ae some things about CCM that are as bad as or worse than the secular industry. At least the secular industry doesn't try to pretend to be something it's not and hide all the "money is all that matters" junk behind what too often is a Christian facade that has no substance. That doesn't mean God can't use it or that He isn't in control. It means that people left to their own devices screw up and are nothing without God.

My take is there are likely several reasons contributing to Petra's being around so long. It's probably partly because they're doing what they're supposed to do and are trusting God, partly because they want to be, partly because Petra fans want them around.

I understand what Brent is saying also, but he is saying it from a humanistic viewpoint and not the Godly viewpoint I would expect from him. God is in complete control of ALL including CCM, but what He allows we all really fail to understand. His plan trumps anything & everything, and no I'm not talking about The Donald.

[brent]

Ccm is a freewill issue. God has not ordained an industry, just us and the church.

[Preacherman777]

The Bible shows us that even wicked rulers got where they were because God allowed it and used them for his purposes, so to suggest that God has nothing to do with who makes it or who does not make it in CCM is ridiculous. I'm not saying that those who make it are blessed by God or ordained by God, but there is no question God is involved one way or another for his purposes. I think the way you worded your statement just left something to be desired theologically speaking. God's sovereignty does not deny free will, but free will regardless of ones theological perspective is limited and confined within the framework of God's purposes.

[executioner]

Ccm is a freewill issue. God has not ordained an industry, just us and the church.

I agree with you, but God is in control of everything and will use evil to get His plan completed. God might not be welcomed in CCM any longer but He is still there and He will use it for His purpose and there is not a thing they can do about that.

[brent]

I think we have a different concept of control and just what God does. Having been on the inside of the CCM machine, I would say boldly that I would not serve any God in control of "that". I can tell you now that all of the debauchery occurring in the secular music industry has occurred and is occurring in the current day.

God is sovereign and is in control, but that does not mean that God is the cause and effect of all things.

What is important is that God be praised, God's Salvation be spread, and that people be made disciples as the Holy Spirit convicts them with the Truth. God doesn't need Petra, or any other band, to do this for His will to be done. In other words, it doesn't matter WHO does it. The message is bigger than any one group. The message will be declared. The reason why I prefer not to tie this too an industry, or a specific combination of people in a band, is that the success of the band is hired upon the personalities involved, the demand for the band, the ability for the band to be profitable, etc. In other words, the success of the band is totally conditional on man. So, do I want to put my trust in a system of men, or God?

Perhaps the people that think Petra is out of the will of God if they do not perform should really think about the REAL group of people out of God's will. If it is God's will for Petra to be the Billy Graham of CCM, and God requires them to make a living at it, then the world of CCM fans is our of God's will for not supporting them, whether they like the music or not.

CCM is self serving for the most part. There is no evangelism or discipleship in most of it. There is a bunch of praise though. I will give 'em that.

[Preacherman777]

I did not say that God is the cause and effect of all things. You are misunderstanding me. I said there is nothing that happens that is not under God's control. If there are wicked people in CCM, God knows it and ultimately, even their wickedness will serve God's purposes. However, I would also not say that there is no one in CCM who is blessed by God or who is following God's will. You cannot possibly know the hearts of everyone in CCM nor are you or anyone else so perfect that they can make such blanket judgement of so many. You may feel the industry is corrupt and you may be right about that, but it still doesn't justify the claim you are trying to make. No matter how one looks at the subject of free will, free will is limited. The only being in existence truly capable of unrestrained free will is God himself.

[Shell]

We have free will in that we can choose whether to follow God or not, but God is bigger than all that and can do His work in spite of people's tendency to mess up. There are some good examples of that in the Bible. Some of those folks messed up big time and God still prevailed.

[executioner]

I did not say that God is the cause and effect of all things. You are misunderstanding me. I said there is nothing that happens that is not under God's control. If there are wicked people in CCM, God knows it and ultimately, even their wickedness will serve God's purposes. However, I would also not say that there is no one in CCM who is blessed by God or who is following God's will. You cannot possibly know the hearts of everyone in CCM nor are you or anyone else so perfect that they can make such blanket judgement of so many. You may feel the industry is corrupt and you may be right about that, but it still doesn't justify the claim you are trying to make. No matter how one looks at the subject of free will, free will is limited. The only being in existence truly capable of unrestrained free will is God himself.

Hell must have frozen over because I just agreed with the Preacher.

[Shell]

I guess miracles still do happen. That is funny.

[srlwizfan]

So how can I find out what todays christian artists are like off stage? I don't want to give my hard earned money to a bunch of drunk, fornicating, drug using musicians! If I like there songs I'll just download them for free j/k. But really, how can the average guy who is trying to live for God and teach his children how to follow God find musicians that are trying to do the same? How do I know that the bands I liked growing up in the 80's didn't do the same thing (Joe English). It just shows that we can't look at man we must look at God!

Do I just not care if they are not living for God and buy their music anyway? I personally have a hard time listening to Ray Boltz and Michael English songs, but according to the bible my sin is just as bad as theirs. What a can of worms!!

[Shell]

....It just shows that we can't look at man we must look at God!

Do I just not care if they are not living for God and buy their music anyway? I personally have a hard time listening to Ray Boltz and Michael English songs, but according to the bible my sin is just as bad as theirs. What a can of worms!!

Well said. I've said it before, but wrong isn't more wrong for someone because they get attention from the press. There are plenty of people who do the same sort of stuff that you don't hear about. Those folks you mentioned were/are damaged and need to get right with God. That doesn't mean God can't use the music they did to help people, although of course you're not required to listen to it if you don't feel comfortable doing so. As you said, it's God we need to focus on.

You do reap the consequences of sin, even if it doesn't happen right away. Stuff has a way of catching up with you.

[shawnpfan2010]

It never ceases to amaze me how far off topic these posts go. All I was asking is why do we, the fans of Petra, stay so loyal to them, and here we are talking about Gods will in CCM.