My America

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:30 pm

Can't argue with that.

Olga · Post by **Olga** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:12 pm

RJ-

I think you raise a good point. It continually amazes me that a nation like America, which cloaks itself in such rhetoric and imagery of strength, power, and supremacy can so often fail to walk humbly; to fall on it's knees during tragedy and ask itself what it is doing wrong. I think this week of yet another terrible school shooting in this great nation. Tragic and unexcusable. My heart is with all those who have been sadly affected by this event. It leads me to wonder about those evangelicals who become so incensed over the issue of school prayer. Is it sad that American children cannot pray aloud in their schools? Of course. However, I wonder if there aren't larger areas of concern. The real freedom American children need is the ability to go to school and not fear that they may have to pray aloud for God's mercy when a gunmen enters their classroom. I wonder what would happen if American evangelicals put as much effort into lobbying their majority political party of choice to take guns out of homes and out of classrooms. What then would be accomplished in preserving the liberty of their children to pursue all that makes America great? Just a thought.

Historymaker · Post by **Historymaker** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:57 pm

I wonder what would happen if American evangelicals put as much effort into lobbying their majority political party of choice to take guns out of homes and out of classrooms

What an incredibly short sighted, naive thing to say. Nevertheless, based on the scope of your post which could be taken directly from the front page of the American (?) left wing playbook, I am not the least bit surprised.

To assume that this young man, so consumed by the evil leading him to commence such a horrific act, would honestly be concerned about the legalities of posessing a firearm?

What a wonderful world it would be if we could throw away all our guns and weapons, blissfully carefree, and frolic in the meadows with the daisies.

Unfortunately, when you take guns out of homes, or in any way subvert the rights granted to Americans by the second amendment of our Constitution, you LEAVE said guns in the hands of the lawless... who I promise you will not care one bit about any legislation, nor will they think twice about taking advantage of the disarmed populace.

Thank you for your critique on our country from afar... and using any tragic situation to purvey the typical, inane drivel of everything we are doing wrong and why America is such a horrible nation. And yet, ironically enough, you contend that it is AMERICA which 'cloaks itself in such rhetoric'. I beg to differ...

Prayers and sorrow, and not criticism or the condescension you have displayed, were offered by America after the tragedy in your own nation orchestrated by terrorists. A tragedy that claimed many more lives, taking place where? Oh... a school, no less. Perhaps if your government had moved to eliminate firearms from the homes of Russia, this incident could have been averted, right?

Just a thought.

Olga · Post by **Olga** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:14 pm

Well, I'm sorry we disagree. I feel the same sense of outrage about gun violence in my nation as in yours. I mourn it all. I pray for peace. I think the cycle has to stop somewhere. You can't live in fear that if you make the change you leave yourself open to attack. If you hold on to your guns in fear that giving them up leaves you open to another's violence, I see no freedom. Freedom from fear is not found in guns.

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:51 am

It is not fear which drives us as Americans to posses firearms, but the facts of history. Throughout history, many countries that have taken away the ability for it's citizens to defend themselves have later become dictatorships.

It is a fallacy to believe that taking away second ammendment rights would stop such things as school violence. Taking away such rights would only effect those who abide by the law, thus making them susceptible to the wiles of criminal kind, who care nothing for legislation and will find alternative ways to obtain weapons.

It is the very fact that God is being forcefully removed from this country that leads us to have such tragedies as school shootings. So yes, it is the place of the evangelist to cry out against the government for committing such a travesty. Lobbying legislators to commit yet another travesty, such as removing the rights the second ammendment provides, would only further this country's downward spiral.

calicowriter · Post by **calicowriter** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:44 am

Not to mention that in this particular case, the kid got at least one gun from his grandfather, who was a police officer on the reservation. You can't take the guns away from the police too. No, this child's problems were not due to the fact that he had access to guns. His problems were due to the fact that he did not have access to someone who cared about him enough to share the gospel of love with him. Instead he got his influence from the gospel of hate.

That being said, I do think that some of the more vocal and visible representatives of "evangelicals" (as the left wing calls anyone with morals), might be better served spending more time on their knees than in front of cameras.

Olga · Post by **Olga** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:48 pm

Thank you for the support, comrade;)

I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't see the world in red, white, and blue! Since you seem so objective, I was wondering to get your opinion on something. Well, I guess I shall be polite and leave this inquiry up to any one who would like to respond.

I'm going on a missions trip to Cuba soon. I've never been there but I'm very excited about the opportunity. I'm sad that this nation has not yet been able to break from communism as my nation has. Nonetheless, I think things are changing there. What I still find befuddling is how America can still choose to chastise this nation, while it grants China, another communist nation, trading priority (even Republicans seem to like doing business with Red China). It will be eye-opening to see how this nation is impoverished, no doubt a victim of it's own politically system BUT ALSO unfairly punished continually by very detrimental economic sanctions. Maybe once America realizes it can open Walmart sweatshops in Cuba too, they'll change their minds.

Anyhow, in light of this poverty how do I tell the Cuban children Jesus loves them? And to my American friends I would like their input on what I tell the Cubans I meet about this place called America that so coldly turns it's back on them?

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:52 pm

Well, it seems like the folks who think the U.S. is so horrible and that everything that goes wrong in the world is the U.S.'s fault have their minds made up, so I may be wasting my time here. But I do have a couple of questions: If the U.S. is so horrible, why is it that we're the country people want to immigrate to? Where are these people's governments?

I've attempted to read opinions from people who don't live in the U.S. with an open mind with the realization that people from different countries may have different opinions. I even thought some of the parodies Matthew posted were funny. I'd be one of the first to admit we're far from perfect. We tend to take what we have for granted. Our social security is in sad shape and if something doesn't change, young people in their 20s just starting their careers won't have anything when they retire. Insurance companies are allowed to get away with way too much and medical care is too expensive.

But you know what? I'd still rather live here than anywhere else. If that makes me an evil American, I guess I'm an evil American.

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:09 pm

Olga wrote:Thank you for the support, comrade;)

I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't see the world in red, white, and blue! Since you seem so objective, I was wondering to get your opinion on something. Well, I guess I shall be polite and leave this inquiry up to any one who would like to respond.

I'm going on a missions trip to Cuba soon. I've never been there but I'm very excited about the opportunity. I'm sad that this nation has not yet been able to break from communism as my nation has. Nonetheless, I think things are changing there. What I still find befuddling is how America can still choose to chastise this nation, while it grants China, another communist nation, trading priority (even Republicans seem to like doing business with Red China). It will be eye-opening to see how this nation is impoverished, no doubt a victim of it's own politically system BUT ALSO unfairly punished continually by very detrimental economic sanctions. Maybe once America realizes it can open Walmart sweatshops in Cuba too, they'll change their minds.

Anyhow, in light of this poverty how do I tell the Cuban children Jesus loves them? And to my American friends I would like their input on what I tell the Cubans I meet about this place called America that so coldly turns it's back on them?

Since when was your country perfect? I seem to remember a certain leader of the USSR killing over 70 millions of his own people in death camps. Just because Russia is no longr a "communist" country now doesn't mean they don't have their own dirty dealings. Does Russia make dealings with China? I suspect they do. So get off your high horse. No one and nothing in this world is, was, or ever shall be perfect outside of Jesus Christ.

Oh wait, I forgot. You and every other foreigner is an objective thinker unlike us closed minded Americans.

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 3:07 pm

Matthew RJ wrote:Why attack Russia like that. Did Olga ever say her country was perfect? Don't think so. Did she even claim it's the best on earth ... no. She asked a serious question about poverty in cuba (and didn't even mention the poverty in your own country where people are bankrupt from medical bills) and instead of answering the question you completely ignore it and go right to putting down a person's nationality.

1. When has anyone on this board ever claimed that America is perfect? Never.

2. I never attacked her nationality. Everything I stated was fact. If people like you are so dead set on making claims that this country isn't perfect, you'd better be darn sure that you're coming from a perfect country, otherwise you don't have a leg to stand on.

Olga · Post by **Olga** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:42 pm

Okay, so I'm going to ask my question without any inflammatory remarks. We can try that here, ya? What do we do to address poverty in America AND around the world?

Olga · Post by **Olga** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:09 pm

Sadly, my point has been proven. Americans, as you guys represent them (I will not be so naive as to think that you guys represent the will of your nation, just the 49% or 50% that voted for Bush), seem more interested in diatribe than dialogue. All week I have had this serious point for discussion listed, and no comment. C'mon, I want to dialogue with Americans! Thus, I resort to my old approach. Inflammation! It seems to be the only way you will associate with me. So, here I go. If you complain about me being inflammatory, it is only because you would not deal with me on a more rational level (please, still feel free to prove me wrong and discuss your ideas on the eradication of poverty with me).

I admit I don't know how I feel about this whole Schaivo thing. But I found it ironic, hearing an American congressman on TV this morning saying that Americans should never be in the position of deciding life and death.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:14 pm

I am not going to sit here and take this.

Olga wrote:Anyhow, in light of this poverty how do I tell the Cuban children Jesus loves them? And to my American friends I would like their input on what I tell the Cubans I meet about this place called America that so coldly turns it's back on them?

Olga wrote:C'mon, I want to dialogue with Americans! Thus, I resort to my old approach. Inflammation! It seems to be the only way you will associate with me. So, here I go. If you complain about me being inflammatory, it is only because you would not deal with me on a more rational level (please, still feel free to prove me wrong and discuss your ideas on the eradication of poverty with me).

First off, you keep confusing our out of control government with its citizens. Secondly, you only see what happens here as reported by our obviously left-wing, borderline Goebbelian monopolized media. You drank the Kool-Aid like a Charles Manson party guest. You better be careful what you think you know. For example, it would sound pretty ignorant of me if I were to say, "Russia? Oh yeah, didn't they get their butts beaten so bad by Afghanistan back in the 80s, and then we overran them in a matter of minutes? Aren't they the country aiding the slaughter of Christians in Georgia? Didn't Putin oppose the candidate for the Ukrainian presidency that got mysteriously poisoned? Oh yeah, his hands are clean from that. What's that red white and blue jersey say? Eruzione?" That would be pretty ignorant of me, wouldn't it? Because I know you, Olga, you are someone who is above the fray. You aren't responsible for what he does. You didn't "elect" him.

Canada, don't think I've forgotten about you. Don't worry about our medical system, it will be socialist like your polar waste soon enough. Talk to me about a vulgar display of power then. Then we'll have an even more despotic monster than Bush who will waste no time annexing you with the pen or the bomb, and I'll be like, "Finally, Michigan isn't the coldest state anymore" and it will be just fine and dandy with all us Yanks for you to keep trucking your trash across the river into the Wolverine State. Your best rock band is Trooper anyway.

You think we don't have an eye for whats happening in the world? We put our money where our hearts are. Russians aren't the only ones trying to sneak the Gospel into Cuba USSR's partner in crime in the 60s as I recall. Outside of a typically idiotic Janet Reno decision, why do you think we don't send Cubans back when they make it to Florida? Because, welcome to the land of opportunity! Do you think as they desparately cling to a makeshift raft for 90 miles of sea, they pass any dinghys full of Americans just salivating over the hope and opportunity they know they'll find in Cuba?

Oh, how do we aid Cuba...how about starting with the money being paid to Russia by the Saudis? I don't know...I've opened my checkbook. Poverty will always exist. Everywhere. When greed ends, so does poverty, but we're all pretty good at greed, plus we're comfortable in our nice houses and internet access.

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:26 am

You think because we don't reply to your accusations that it proves any points, Olga? You seem to have your mind made up, why would you want to bother to have dialogue with Americans when that's the case? It isn't dialogue to make accusations and deliberately try to upset people. And you never answered my question about why it is that people want to immigrate here if we're so horrible.

I do understand how you feel, Jonathan, but don't waste your time arguing with her now. She wouldn't be so concerned about the U.S. if her own government was doing what it was supposed to.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:16 am

Meh, its just an old fashioned message board throwdown. Energy is expended pointlessly, flaming rhetoric is volleyed, and no one comes away clean.

Its like a hockey fight. Beautiful, graceful, and not without its charms.

The Petra Zone

My America

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