SB 1070

[epdc]

Wow, I have learned so much today, seriously. Thank you for posting, some of the stuff you said I didnt know it, very interesting, I´m gonna print your comments to read them slowly. There have been debates at my home and at work about all this new law and your opinion as americans is important to me.

I dont agree with my government either, I have this american college that was trying to obtain a work permission and migration told him to get a letter from his work so he could get the permission in one of the schools I work, they refused to give him the letter so he had to quit and has no permission to work, I thought that was really unfair .

I dont think is ok to put in jail someone just because is illegal, I dont agree as I said to what my country does.

And yeah you are right, this whole migration topic should be spoken by your president and my president, sadly my president is an a****le (sorry! but is true). And the president we had before is too. Our president hasnt made our lives easier and hasnt tried to start the dialogue with Barack Obama.

There were many points about how immigrants are being treated on the states that I didnt know, seriously, thank you for not starting a fight but writing informational data.

[Shell]

I was talking about the national debt, but perhaps that's a totally different issue that doesn't really have anything to do with immigration.

What you suggest makes sense, Manny. The hard part is actually getting something like that established. I don't think either extreme, right or left, is good.

[brent]

Ok Zak, then Im ignorant, please explain me why then there hasnt been made any arrangements, or laws about legalizing immigrants? I dont know the word in english, "reform"?, considering illegal immigration is one of the BIGGEST problems in the USA, why the USA hasn´t work on new laws or reforms about it? This problem has decades, why no president has figured out how to solve it, besides , of course, kicking the immigrants out?. And I dont mention racism because I´m losing my dialogue, it is what it is, there is no interest in solving this problem. Unless you answer my question that´s the only explanation.

Shell, I have no doubt your family entered to the stated legally, but as you said, that was decades ago, now, trust me, now it is IMPOSIBBLE to get a permission to work on the states, they wont allow you to get a permission if there´s the tiniest suspicion that you intend to work over there. It is impossible.

If an illegal immigrant says openly "I´m illegal, I want to get a permission to stay here so I start paying taxes, social security", the immigration office wont listen, they will inmediately take that person in prison and out of the country. So that´s why these people dont pay taxes or social security, if they would try, they would be send inmediately to their homelands, so there´s no choice but to hide.

I´m not saying the USA let you pass and no questions asked, I mean, there´s gotta be a way, like the person has to present all his/her personal info, fingerprints, to put all her/his data before entering the country. Not just the USA but all countries should do that, right now I´m pointing the USA because the Arizona law is right by my house (I live close to the boarder).

THERE ARE LAWS FOR IMMIGRATION. MEXICANS CHOOSE NOT TO FOLLOW THEM. This is what I say to Mexicans that think the bad old US is unfair to them:

Look. My family has adopted Mexican orphans. My bother married into a large Mexican family. Some of my hardest working and moral employees have been Mexicans. My wife teaches at a school largely dominated by Mexican children. So, I am not anti-Mexican in any way.

Less than 50 percent of the US citizens pay taxes. Over 50 percent are on US government and/or state assistance programs. Our economy is failing. Our health care system is taxed. We just can't take any more people, especially if they have no regard for the laws of our land. This is not an anti-Mexican policy. You are blowing this out of proportion. There are about 12 million of you people over here illegally. There is a large population committing crimes. We have drugs coming in from Mexico. We have baby trafficing from Mexico. We have convicted felons, guilty of killing people while driving vehicles while drunk, when they had no license to drive or authority to be in this country to begin with. We are having to change our culture to suit the people escaping your country, because your country is lacking resources, wealth, law, suitable enforcement of the law, etc, etc. Then we have the terrorists entering your country, crossing our borders, to hurt us.

Instead of blaming us for wanting to protect our legal citizens from your corrupted, law-breaking, illegal aliens, then fix YOUR country. Fix your politicians. Fix your economy. Give people a reason to stay there. THAT should be the source of your anger, not us. I am for the law. Our Constitution binds our government to protect us, and the government is not willing to do it. So the states are going to have their fill, and voters are going to oust this nut job Obama and his whacko regime...I HOPE.

Look, what if Russia started to invade your country with a few million people a year, until it took food out of your mouth, teachers away from your students, and then your country decided to make you speak Russian as a secondary language? What if your doctors were tied up helping the Russians in your hospitals, while you, a natural citizen, had to wait. Imagine you having to give up more of what YOU earn, to pay for someone else to live in a prison, for a murder that could of been avoided had that Russian stayed in Russia.

If I were you, I would be investigating the EU, the NWO and other organizations that view your country as a drain on the global community. They want to get rid of your country, and consolidate it. There are dark powers at play to take your country down, and it is not the USA. If anyone has given you guys the "get out of jail free card", it is the USA.

You are listening to the mainstream press, which is all BULLCRAP. They say what the government wants them to say. We have had border patrols, hired, trained and then put in prison for doing their job. If you think there is a major resistance, think again. We must be the only country that prosecutes it's one employees for doing their own job, protecting the citizens.

If you cannot afford to come to the US, pay your way, get a job, assume our identity and our culture, forsaking your own, then the USA does not want you. That is where the majority of us are at right now. We do not want to be a Muslim nation. We do not want to be anything else. We are about full. We are running out of land, roads, food, fuel, money, etc. It is time to lock the doors and tell other nations to get off of their asses and do for themselves for a while. Sometimes teaching people to fish is better than continuing to catch the fish for them while they do nothing. Tough love baby!

BTW, The law stated that the Mexicans would be expelled only if they were found guilty of being here illegally. Legal aliens stay. So, what is the problem? All of us must carry ID. All of us must have a driver's license. All of us must have a Social Security Card. If you can't provide these, you cannot work legally, pay your taxes legally, own or operate a vehicle legally, etc, etc. Why are YOU AGAINST FOLLOWING THE LAWS? If these law breakers don't want to do it our way, it's too bad for them. Living here is not a RIGHT. It is something we earn and contribute to...under the law.

[gman]

The border is more secure? Really? There is less violence? I think we could all use a little homework on that. There are lot of bad things happening down there. Violence, drug activity kidnappings, etc. that go unreported by most of the media. Arizona is responding to a problem because they feel no one else is. From what I understand, the Arizona mirrors the existing federal law on this issue, which has largely gone unenforced. Hence, the situation we are in.
Should we provide a legal way for Mexicans to come here? Yes. Should we make it easier for them than we do for anyone else? That's debatable. Should we close the border first and stop the flow. Probably so, if we want to weed out those who want to put in the effort and come here the right way, versus those who are milking the current situation because they can; and also to stop the durg activity, kipnappings, killings, etc.
Should we grant amnesty to those who are already here? Probably not the best idea. A lot of politicians don't care about the ramifications of doing so. They are only seeing a potential large voting block to help them stay in office.
Another point to be made is that if Mexico and other countries, particulary those south of us, were fashioned more like the USA and less like the third world regimes that they are, their situation wouldn't be so bleak.

[executioner]

It's funny how a higher % of the illegals pay taxes over actual U.S. Citizens. They are not what have brought this country down; They are actually what have kept the daily goods in this country affordable. The cost of our food items would sky rocket without them doing the daily work.
I go to a church that deals with illegal immigration on a daily basis, and is actually doing what the great commission says and helping them spiritually without asking for anything in return. We are helping about 1,ooo a month get ITIN numbers so they will be registered here in the U.S. and will be able to pay taxes and contribute to the economy. I would say anywhere for 45-50% that we have helped in the last 3 years are now legalized here in the U.S. How many of these have come to know Christ because of this is countless.
I say this and I say this meanifully that if we deport even 20% of the illegals in this country our economy will collaspe within a month. These people are so inbedded in the economy it will be a disaster.
It's time for the Americans to get up off their bums and get to work, so many people now on unemployment choose to stay on unemployment because they can't find a job in their field, well guess what there's a good chance their field is gone. It's time to start over people ,there are jobs out there yeah the jobs may not be what you want to do, but hey have some self respect.

[brent]

Whomever said that illegals were the first to be laid off, I say bull. I laugh at these statistics.

First of all, do you REALLY think that employers are offering the feds this information, telling the feds that they have been employing illegal aliens? Please. It is a federal offense. Companies must have all of their I-9 info for audit. Having managed several multi-million dollar businesses with Mexican staffs, I can tell you that businesses take extra precautions to ensure all I-9 info is correct. I have even blown the lid on some fraudulent applicants to save my own rear. The illegals that do fool legit employers are providing high quality docs and ID. They are good enough to fool the government. Second of all, everyone in construction, maintenance, hospitality, transportation has taken a hit. ALL workers at the bottom of the food chain have been affected. This is all liberal media propaganda.

I know of a family, just about 5 doors down, that purchased their SSN, DL, etc for $5,000 when they crossed the boarder. They drive without insurance, work at a McDonalds, etc. My wife helped them apply for some state aid, because the father abandoned them and left them with a stolen car from the east coast. This is how we found out that she was illegal. If they can come up with $5k, they can apply and pay what everyone else pays to get in. They put just as much effort into doing it the hard way as legit people put into doing it the right way. They just have the incorrect mindset.

[corolla1]

This country is broke and we can't afford to give out more handouts. Many Americans don't understand the dire straits our country and our economy is facing. If the illegal immigrants were forced to go home, then there would be jobs for our citizens. We lost 8 million jobs during this recession (close to depression). These jobs are not coming back soon if at all. For every job that's available there are six unemployed people. There are not enough jobs and many Americans are going to be unemployed on a permanent basis with no hope of getting a job. Where is the compassion for these people? We need to take care of our own first.

[CatNamedManny]

Less than 50 percent of the US citizens pay taxes.

Untrue. 47 percent of U.S. households did not owe federal income taxes; however, all people purchasing goods in the United States pay state sales taxes, never mind local sales taxes and state and local income taxes and other federal taxes (such as payroll tax). The percentage of U.S. citizens who pay any kind of federal taxes is 90 percent. [Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/busin ... hardt.html]

Over 50 percent are on US government and/or state assistance programs

.

Not quite. In the third quarter of 2008, the peak of the financial crisis, 45 percent of U.S. households had at least one member receiving government benefits. That means the actual overall percentage of American citizens is a good deal lower. [Source: http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p70-119.pdf]

Our economy is failing. Our health care system is taxed. We just can't take any more people, especially if they have no regard for the laws of our land.

Even accepting the first two statements (I would actually reverse the verbs: our economy is taxed; our health-care system is failing), it's quite the non sequitur to argue, "We just can't take any more people." Won't those people pay taxes that will provide more revenue for the government? Won't they buy things, injecting more money into the economy? "Especially if they have no regard for the laws of our land." This is true on its face; they're breaking a law by not entering legally; but, again, data show illegal immigrants do not commit crimes at rates any higher than would be expected for a group of people of their class and income levels born and bed in the U.S. [Source: http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime ... ver_i.html]

This is not an anti-Mexican policy. You are blowing this out of proportion. There are about 12 million of you people over here illegally.

First, it was down to 11 million in 2008, down from 12.5 million in 2007, so I wouldn't be surprised if we're down below 10 million now. Less than 6 million are from Mexico. No one really talks about the other 5 million though. Roughly 1 million are from Asia. Yet I don't hear a lot about keeping all those Asians... [source:http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/61.pdf]

There is a large population committing crimes. We have drugs coming in from Mexico. We have baby trafficing from Mexico. We have convicted felons, guilty of killing people while driving vehicles while drunk, when they had no license to drive or authority to be in this country to begin with.

Anecdotes are fun, but they're no substitute for facts, and the facts show that while, yes, illegal immigrants commit crimes, so do legal immigrants, and so do U.S. citizens, and if you take an illegal immigrant, a legal immigrant and a U.S. citizen, all from the same income level and socioeconomic background, there is no difference between each one's likelihood to commit a crime. [see above]

Instead of blaming us for wanting to protect our legal citizens from your corrupted, law-breaking, illegal aliens, then fix YOUR country.

Repeating the same incorrect stereotypes does not make them any less incorrect. No one doubts Mexico needs to be fixed. But you know what's fueling the drug-and-guns crisis in Mexico? American guns and American appetite for illegal drugs. The Mexican drug trade is decimated the minute we legalize marijuana in the States. It's not just a Mexican problem.

Our Constitution binds our government to protect us, and the government is not willing to do it. So the states are going to have their fill, and voters are going to oust this nut job Obama and his whacko regime...I HOPE.

Well, as long as we're rational about it. The Obama administration has increased deportations by 10 percent over the Bush administration. Illegal border crossings are one-third the levels they were a decade ago, and it's estimated two-thirds of all attempted crossers are detained at the border. The idea that the border is this lawless outpost, with violence and beheadings and zero enforcement is patently, blatantly, laughably false. [Source: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =126887021]

Look, what if Russia started to invade your country with a few million people a year, until it took food out of your mouth, teachers away from your students, and then your country decided to make you speak Russian as a secondary language? What if your doctors were tied up helping the Russians in your hospitals, while you, a natural citizen, had to wait. Imagine you having to give up more of what YOU earn, to pay for someone else to live in a prison, for a murder that could of been avoided had that Russian stayed in Russia.

Ooooh, the Russians! So much scarier than the Mexicans! Look, it's not "a few million people a year." It's more like 250,000. And why do they do it? Not to sell drugs or rape women or kill babies. Because their average wage increases from $2.30 to $8.50 per hour once they cross the Rio Grande. The question of their effect on American workers is much more complicated than either side would try to make it out to be. Yes, the wages of low-income American workers are reduced by immigrants, both legal and illegal, willing to work for dirt cheap. On the other hand, the increased productivity and profits those immigrants provide lead to lower costs for the goods and services they produce, therefore increasing the spending power of all residents who live in high-immigration areas. As for using American social services, these immigrants also pay taxes -- sales taxes, gas taxes, payroll taxes, etc. -- the benefits of which they will not receive to the degree U.S. citizens do. Studies indicate this offsets the benefits they receive, and the overall net cost to their U.S.-born neighbors is zero. [Source: http://www.cfr.org/content/publications ... nCSR26.pdf]

If I were you, I would be investigating the EU, the NWO and other organizations that view your country as a drain on the global community. They want to get rid of your country, and consolidate it. There are dark powers at play to take your country down, and it is not the USA. If anyone has given you guys the "get out of jail free card", it is the USA.

Yes, of all the countries in the world causing problems, including its own member countries of Greece, Spain, Portugal and Iceland, the EU is worried about taking down Mexico. That makes soooo much sense. How would they take it down? Coup? Assassination? Nuclear holocaust? Drive it into bankruptcy, foreclose and sell the land to Warren Buffet? Sorry, I'm a little slow to buy the "dark powers" argument.

You are listening to the mainstream press, which is all BULLCRAP. They say what the government wants them to say.

This is the point at which I realized once and for all that I just wasted my time reading everything before and after that. As a former member of the mainstream press, let me tell you: There is no vast conspiracy, no taking marching orders from the government, no big cabal out to lead the big Obamarevolution to take away all the rights and freedoms of the hard-working Americans. ... But then I would say that, wouldn't I? Mwahahaha.

We have had border patrols, hired, trained and then put in prison for doing their job. If you think there is a major resistance, think again. We must be the only country that prosecutes it's one employees for doing their own job, protecting the citizens

I'm pretty sure their job description didn't involve shooting unarmed people who are running away from them and then covering it up, which is what those agents were convicted of doing, by a jury of their peers, in a court of law. [Source: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,244193,00.html]

If you cannot afford to come to the US, pay your way, get a job, assume our identity and our culture, forsaking your own, then the USA does not want you.

The United States has never required that legal immigrants forsake their own culture. Assimilation is not a requirement for citizenship, nor should it be. The federal government should have no role in telling its citizens what language to speak, what religious customs to observe (with certain exceptions), how to dress (with certain exceptions) or what culture to maintain in their home.

That is where the majority of us are at right now.

Gosh, I hope not.

We do not want to be a Muslim nation.

Good. Because we're not, and we won't be. Just like we're not, have never been and shouldn't ever be a Christian nation. We are a nation that has no official religion and provides the freedom for people of all faiths to practice that faith when, where and how they see fit, providing the exercise of that faith does not infringe on the rights of others to practice their faith.

We do not want to be anything else. We are about full. We are running out of land, roads, food, fuel, money, etc. It is time to lock the doors and tell other nations to get off of their asses and do for themselves for a while. Sometimes teaching people to fish is better than continuing to catch the fish for them while they do nothing. Tough love baby!

None of this is remotely true, nor wise, nor particularly useful to the discussion.

BTW, The law stated that the Mexicans would be expelled only if they were found guilty of being here illegally. Legal aliens stay.

Unless they left their papers at home. Or unless they're U.S. citizens out for a stroll without their wallet, and whoops! They're a little too "shady looking" for the police officer's taste, and now they're in a holding cell waiting for someone to bring their driver's license, which as we all know can be forged, to the station.

Why are YOU AGAINST FOLLOWING THE LAWS?

Interesting that many police chiefs in Arizona were also opposed to this law. Were they also "AGAINST FOLLOWING THE LAWS?!" Or were they merely concerned that a law like this would destroy the trust between Hispanics and the police, which is key to arresting actually dangerous people, and noticing that the one county that makes it a point to focus heavily on illegal immigration has actually seen a sharp increase in violent crime as resources are diverted from preventing it? [Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64P58T20100526]

If these law breakers don't want to do it our way, it's too bad for them. Living here is not a RIGHT. It is something we earn and contribute to...under the law.

All this is true, as far as it goes. Someone who enters the country illegally takes the risk that he or she will be discovered and potentially deported. They obviously don't have a right to be here, but they're still willing to try because of the desperation they feel across the border. We can type in all caps and rant and rave about law and order all we want; that will help exactly zero people, will go exactly none of the way toward solving the problem, and will do a whole heck of a lot to turn people off to the faith we're supposed to be offering to them, regardless of their nation of origin or the legal status of their residency.

[Dan]

I live in Arizona legally. If you got here jumping the fence or what ever go home. We respect the law here.

Paper work is no excuse for not following the law.

This State is over run by people laughing in the face of the law, getting emergency health care and never getting a bill. Has nothing to do with race.. what a load of rubbish.

My wife is Latino, and we both support the new law fully..

Bloody Obama

[Masada1]

I live in Indiana...not a state with a particular problem with illegal border crossings. So, maybe I don't have a personal stake in this...but it seems to me that the only one in this discussion who has approached reasonableness is Manny.

I absolutely cringe when I see nationalistic interests get tied in with "Christian" interests. And I put that in quotes because there seems to be a perspective among certain groups in this country that there is only one way to see any issue and that, of course, their way of viewing it is God's way. Our duties as Christians far outweighs any nationalistic interests we may have. I guess we forgot that whole parable of the sheep and goats sort of thing. Oh, and don't get off by reminding me that God expects us to follow the laws of the land. That's one verse (or maybe a few) plopped down in a Book that is literally filled with thousands of verses concerning how we as representatives of God are supposed to stand with and for those who are poor, have no voice, are downtroden, sick, in prison (surely not...after all, they committed the crime), naked, hungry, etc... I'm sure God will be very understanding that we had laws that came into play that let us off the hook.

You want to fix immigration...then start being the people that God has called us to be. Even in a time of economic depression/ recession, we in the US still live immeasurably better than our brethren to the south. Most people who come to the US illegally do so at considerable personal (uh...death) trying to find a way to make some money so that can survive. Quoting law is fine if youre a lawyer, but if it prevents us from showing compassion then God have mercy on us all...we've gone down a bad bad road as a country. We are citizens of heaven first and foremost, not citizens of any particular country. You want to disagree...fine...God bless us...that is your right, but I suggest you read the whole of the Book He gave us instead of just those few verses shouted to the rooftops by those who manipulate the Christian right movement by fearmongering and misdirection. Seems to me that if all of us are so busy arguing about the law...then its not too hard to imagine that we are really going to be doing the work of ambassadors.

Brent, I have tons of respect for the stuff you write when it comes to the music business and CCM in particular. I agree with 99% of it. I'm sorry to say though, brother, that I just happen to think you are just about as far off base on this issue as a person can get. However, I'm not God, so I could be as well. What I do know is that Christians shouting (figuratively speaking...and not indicating that you were) right-wing or leftist hyperbole doesn't serve the interest of Christ. It seems to me that we are supposed to be ambassadors for Christ and agents of reconciliation.

[Dan]

[brent]

Less than 50 percent of the US citizens pay taxes.

Untrue. 47 percent of U.S. households did not owe federal income taxes; however, all people purchasing goods in the United States pay state sales taxes, never mind local sales taxes and state and local income taxes and other federal taxes (such as payroll tax). The percentage of U.S. citizens who pay any kind of federal taxes is 90 percent. [Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/busin ... hardt.html]

Over 50 percent are on US government and/or state assistance programs

.

Not quite. In the third quarter of 2008, the peak of the financial crisis, 45 percent of U.S. households had at least one member receiving government benefits. That means the actual overall percentage of American citizens is a good deal lower. [Source: http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p70-119.pdf]

Our economy is failing. Our health care system is taxed. We just can't take any more people, especially if they have no regard for the laws of our land.

Even accepting the first two statements (I would actually reverse the verbs: our economy is taxed; our health-care system is failing), it's quite the non sequitur to argue, "We just can't take any more people." Won't those people pay taxes that will provide more revenue for the government? Won't they buy things, injecting more money into the economy? "Especially if they have no regard for the laws of our land." This is true on its face; they're breaking a law by not entering legally; but, again, data show illegal immigrants do not commit crimes at rates any higher than would be expected for a group of people of their class and income levels born and bed in the U.S. [Source: http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime ... ver_i.html]

This is not an anti-Mexican policy. You are blowing this out of proportion. There are about 12 million of you people over here illegally.

First, it was down to 11 million in 2008, down from 12.5 million in 2007, so I wouldn't be surprised if we're down below 10 million now. Less than 6 million are from Mexico. No one really talks about the other 5 million though. Roughly 1 million are from Asia. Yet I don't hear a lot about keeping all those Asians... [source:http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/61.pdf]

There is a large population committing crimes. We have drugs coming in from Mexico. We have baby trafficing from Mexico. We have convicted felons, guilty of killing people while driving vehicles while drunk, when they had no license to drive or authority to be in this country to begin with.

Anecdotes are fun, but they're no substitute for facts, and the facts show that while, yes, illegal immigrants commit crimes, so do legal immigrants, and so do U.S. citizens, and if you take an illegal immigrant, a legal immigrant and a U.S. citizen, all from the same income level and socioeconomic background, there is no difference between each one's likelihood to commit a crime. [see above]

Instead of blaming us for wanting to protect our legal citizens from your corrupted, law-breaking, illegal aliens, then fix YOUR country.

Repeating the same incorrect stereotypes does not make them any less incorrect. No one doubts Mexico needs to be fixed. But you know what's fueling the drug-and-guns crisis in Mexico? American guns and American appetite for illegal drugs. The Mexican drug trade is decimated the minute we legalize marijuana in the States. It's not just a Mexican problem.

Our Constitution binds our government to protect us, and the government is not willing to do it. So the states are going to have their fill, and voters are going to oust this nut job Obama and his whacko regime...I HOPE.

Well, as long as we're rational about it. The Obama administration has increased deportations by 10 percent over the Bush administration. Illegal border crossings are one-third the levels they were a decade ago, and it's estimated two-thirds of all attempted crossers are detained at the border. The idea that the border is this lawless outpost, with violence and beheadings and zero enforcement is patently, blatantly, laughably false. [Source: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =126887021]

Look, what if Russia started to invade your country with a few million people a year, until it took food out of your mouth, teachers away from your students, and then your country decided to make you speak Russian as a secondary language? What if your doctors were tied up helping the Russians in your hospitals, while you, a natural citizen, had to wait. Imagine you having to give up more of what YOU earn, to pay for someone else to live in a prison, for a murder that could of been avoided had that Russian stayed in Russia.

Ooooh, the Russians! So much scarier than the Mexicans! Look, it's not "a few million people a year." It's more like 250,000. And why do they do it? Not to sell drugs or rape women or kill babies. Because their average wage increases from $2.30 to $8.50 per hour once they cross the Rio Grande. The question of their effect on American workers is much more complicated than either side would try to make it out to be. Yes, the wages of low-income American workers are reduced by immigrants, both legal and illegal, willing to work for dirt cheap. On the other hand, the increased productivity and profits those immigrants provide lead to lower costs for the goods and services they produce, therefore increasing the spending power of all residents who live in high-immigration areas. As for using American social services, these immigrants also pay taxes -- sales taxes, gas taxes, payroll taxes, etc. -- the benefits of which they will not receive to the degree U.S. citizens do. Studies indicate this offsets the benefits they receive, and the overall net cost to their U.S.-born neighbors is zero. [Source: http://www.cfr.org/content/publications ... nCSR26.pdf]

If I were you, I would be investigating the EU, the NWO and other organizations that view your country as a drain on the global community. They want to get rid of your country, and consolidate it. There are dark powers at play to take your country down, and it is not the USA. If anyone has given you guys the "get out of jail free card", it is the USA.

Yes, of all the countries in the world causing problems, including its own member countries of Greece, Spain, Portugal and Iceland, the EU is worried about taking down Mexico. That makes soooo much sense. How would they take it down? Coup? Assassination? Nuclear holocaust? Drive it into bankruptcy, foreclose and sell the land to Warren Buffet? Sorry, I'm a little slow to buy the "dark powers" argument.

You are listening to the mainstream press, which is all BULLCRAP. They say what the government wants them to say.

This is the point at which I realized once and for all that I just wasted my time reading everything before and after that. As a former member of the mainstream press, let me tell you: There is no vast conspiracy, no taking marching orders from the government, no big cabal out to lead the big Obamarevolution to take away all the rights and freedoms of the hard-working Americans. ... But then I would say that, wouldn't I? Mwahahaha.

We have had border patrols, hired, trained and then put in prison for doing their job. If you think there is a major resistance, think again. We must be the only country that prosecutes it's one employees for doing their own job, protecting the citizens

I'm pretty sure their job description didn't involve shooting unarmed people who are running away from them and then covering it up, which is what those agents were convicted of doing, by a jury of their peers, in a court of law. [Source: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,244193,00.html]

If you cannot afford to come to the US, pay your way, get a job, assume our identity and our culture, forsaking your own, then the USA does not want you.

The United States has never required that legal immigrants forsake their own culture. Assimilation is not a requirement for citizenship, nor should it be. The federal government should have no role in telling its citizens what language to speak, what religious customs to observe (with certain exceptions), how to dress (with certain exceptions) or what culture to maintain in their home.

That is where the majority of us are at right now.

Gosh, I hope not.

We do not want to be a Muslim nation.

Good. Because we're not, and we won't be. Just like we're not, have never been and shouldn't ever be a Christian nation. We are a nation that has no official religion and provides the freedom for people of all faiths to practice that faith when, where and how they see fit, providing the exercise of that faith does not infringe on the rights of others to practice their faith.

We do not want to be anything else. We are about full. We are running out of land, roads, food, fuel, money, etc. It is time to lock the doors and tell other nations to get off of their asses and do for themselves for a while. Sometimes teaching people to fish is better than continuing to catch the fish for them while they do nothing. Tough love baby!

None of this is remotely true, nor wise, nor particularly useful to the discussion.

BTW, The law stated that the Mexicans would be expelled only if they were found guilty of being here illegally. Legal aliens stay.

Unless they left their papers at home. Or unless they're U.S. citizens out for a stroll without their wallet, and whoops! They're a little too "shady looking" for the police officer's taste, and now they're in a holding cell waiting for someone to bring their driver's license, which as we all know can be forged, to the station.

Why are YOU AGAINST FOLLOWING THE LAWS?

Interesting that many police chiefs in Arizona were also opposed to this law. Were they also "AGAINST FOLLOWING THE LAWS?!" Or were they merely concerned that a law like this would destroy the trust between Hispanics and the police, which is key to arresting actually dangerous people, and noticing that the one county that makes it a point to focus heavily on illegal immigration has actually seen a sharp increase in violent crime as resources are diverted from preventing it? [Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64P58T20100526]

If these law breakers don't want to do it our way, it's too bad for them. Living here is not a RIGHT. It is something we earn and contribute to...under the law.

All this is true, as far as it goes. Someone who enters the country illegally takes the risk that he or she will be discovered and potentially deported. They obviously don't have a right to be here, but they're still willing to try because of the desperation they feel across the border. We can type in all caps and rant and rave about law and order all we want; that will help exactly zero people, will go exactly none of the way toward solving the problem, and will do a whole heck of a lot to turn people off to the faith we're supposed to be offering to them, regardless of their nation of origin or the legal status of their residency.

1. I stand by my tax numbers. I have data.
2. NPR is not a reliable source. They are the government's media.
3. If Obama was really deporting more people, don't you think they would be bragging about that? They will not. They need the votes. They are moving to grant amnesty and allow them to vote.
4. We WERE a Christian nation according to our forefathers and Congressional declaration in the 1800s. You really need to learn our correct history, written by the first 16 or so presidents and Ben Franklin. There are several books out there containing presidential speeches and documents where 16 presidents, BEFORE the pledge was changed, stated that we are a "Christian nation" and/or "one nation under God".
5. You really need to study what happened on the Mayflower, and in the colonial settlements before the US landing. They didn't just zip over here ya' know.
6. You really must study early state governments here in the US. Many states had laws stating that their governors must be a Christian, and NOT anything else. One of them stated that the governor should be a Christian and not a Jew, because they do not accept Jesus Christ.
7. You have bought the governments communistic education hook line and sinker and you have no idea about aour heritage and the real history.

[CatNamedManny]

1. I stand by my tax numbers. I have data.
2. NPR is not a reliable source. They are the government's media.
3. If Obama was really deporting more people, don't you think they would be bragging about that? They will not. They need the votes. They are moving to grant amnesty and allow them to vote.
4. We WERE a Christian nation according to our forefathers and Congressional declaration in the 1800s. You really need to learn our correct history, written by the first 16 or so presidents and Ben Franklin. There are several books out there containing presidential speeches and documents where 16 presidents, BEFORE the pledge was changed, stated that we are a "Christian nation" and/or "one nation under God".
5. You really need to study what happened on the Mayflower, and in the colonial settlements before the US landing. They didn't just zip over here ya' know.
6. You really must study early state governments here in the US. Many states had laws stating that their governors must be a Christian, and NOT anything else. One of them stated that the governor should be a Christian and not a Jew, because they do not accept Jesus Christ.
7. You have bought the governments communistic education hook line and sinker and you have no idea about aour heritage and the real history.

1. Then post it. Simply saying you have it is pretty useless.

2. That's not actually a rebuttal of the merits of the argument. It's shooting the messenger because you don't like the message.

3. Whether they're bragging about it or not, the numbers are the numbers. Deportations in the first three quarters of 2009 were up 10 percent over the first three quarters of 2008, up 60 percent over the first three quarters of 2005.

4. Which forefathers? George Washington, who refused to kneel in church and walked out when it was time for communion? Thomas Jefferson, who made his own Bible by cutting all evidence of Christ's divinity out of the Gospels? James Madison, who was an atheist? John Adams, who signed a treaty with the Barbary pirates stating the United States was not a Christian country and had no problems with the Islamic faith?

5. The people who sailed over on the Mayflower were a repressive group who threw those who disagreed with them into the wilderness and celebrated the news of their death as the will of God. Sounds like some groups we're fighting in the Middle East to me.

6. The charters and constitutions of early state governments are irrelevant to the reality of the First and 14th Amendments, which prohibit states from discriminating on the basis of religion.

7. This is not an argument so much as a poorly worded, poorly argued accusation I feel no compunction to dignify with a response.

As Mosada said, I respect your opinion a great deal when it comes to music, the CCM industry and matters of faith. But on this topic, you have bought fully into a school of political and historical thought that has close to zero basis in reality. The "Christianity" of the founders was created shortly after their deaths by preachers in the Great Awakening who figured they'd have more weight behind their proselytizing if they could point to the faith of the founders. A lot of people bought into that fable, and a lot of people still do. It doesn't make the fable any more true.

[corolla1]

I live in Indiana...not a state with a particular problem with illegal border crossings. So, maybe I don't have a personal stake in this...but it seems to me that the only one in this discussion who has approached reasonableness is Manny.

I absolutely cringe when I see nationalistic interests get tied in with "Christian" interests. And I put that in quotes because there seems to be a perspective among certain groups in this country that there is only one way to see any issue and that, of course, their way of viewing it is God's way. Our duties as Christians far outweighs any nationalistic interests we may have. I guess we forgot that whole parable of the sheep and goats sort of thing. Oh, and don't get off by reminding me that God expects us to follow the laws of the land. That's one verse (or maybe a few) plopped down in a Book that is literally filled with thousands of verses concerning how we as representatives of God are supposed to stand with and for those who are poor, have no voice, are downtroden, sick, in prison (surely not...after all, they committed the crime), naked, hungry, etc... I'm sure God will be very understanding that we had laws that came into play that let us off the hook.

You want to fix immigration...then start being the people that God has called us to be. Even in a time of economic depression/ recession, we in the US still live immeasurably better than our brethren to the south. Most people who come to the US illegally do so at considerable personal (uh...death) trying to find a way to make some money so that can survive. Quoting law is fine if youre a lawyer, but if it prevents us from showing compassion then God have mercy on us all...we've gone down a bad bad road as a country. We are citizens of heaven first and foremost, not citizens of any particular country. You want to disagree...fine...God bless us...that is your right, but I suggest you read the whole of the Book He gave us instead of just those few verses shouted to the rooftops by those who manipulate the Christian right movement by fearmongering and misdirection. Seems to me that if all of us are so busy arguing about the law...then its not too hard to imagine that we are really going to be doing the work of ambassadors.

Brent, I have tons of respect for the stuff you write when it comes to the music business and CCM in particular. I agree with 99% of it. I'm sorry to say though, brother, that I just happen to think you are just about as far off base on this issue as a person can get. However, I'm not God, so I could be as well. What I do know is that Christians shouting (figuratively speaking...and not indicating that you were) right-wing or leftist hyperbole doesn't serve the interest of Christ. It seems to me that we are supposed to be ambassadors for Christ and agents of reconciliation.

While I believe we need to help the poor and downtrodden, we can not excuse lawbreaking. In Romans 13, Paul writes that we should obey the laws of the land since God established the governing authorites and that disobeying these rules is tantamount to disobeying God Himself. Look at these verses carefully. This not about right wing or left wing. It is not about hyperbole either. I'm not against immigration per se, I am just saying we need to follow the rules. Christians above all people should be about that since God requires that of us. The fact that this country is going broke can't be ignored. Illegal immigration puts a strain on the nation's finances to a large degree. While currently this nation is rich, this nation is a sinking ship. As I told epdc, we as a nation will soon be joining her nation as a third world country. That is not hyperbole, that is the truth.

[CatNamedManny]

The fact that this country is going broke can't be ignored. Illegal immigration puts a strain on the nation's finances to a large degree. While currently this nation is rich, this nation is a sinking ship. As I told epdc, we as a nation will soon be joining her nation as a third world country. That is not hyperbole, that is the truth.

Easy things to say. Harder things to prove. Studies that have looked at the economic burden of illegal immigration show it to be a wash. No significant cost, no significant benefit.

And saying it's not hyperbole doesn't make it not hyperbole. The United States is nowhere close to being a third-world country. Are you even aware of what the living conditions are like in a third-world country? That's so hyperbolic as to not even be in the same universe as reality.

And will someone please explain why this is a crisis when more illegal immigrants are leaving the United States than entering it? Doesn't that mean this is actually less of a problem than it was in, say, 2007?