SB 1070

[zak89]

1. This is a secular, not a Christian, government.
2. As such, the government should not make laws based on the Bible or any other religious text.
3. Among other things, this means, for example, that gay marriage should be allowed (because the sole basis for condemning homosexuality is religious). [Yes, I threw that in partly to be provocative, but I'll come back to it.]
4. Every American citizen is a member of the government.
5. Every Christian has a duty to live according to the values and commands of Christ.
6. Jesus emphasized compassion for the poor, the needy, the downtrodden.
7. Christians therefore should have this same compassion and exercise it within the context of their society.
8. The principles Jesus upheld are generally considered, even by unbelievers, to be universal, timeless moral principles that benefit society as a whole.
9. Governments implementing these universal moral principles can therefore maintain their secular nature while still upholding the principles of Christ.
10. Christians should be happy when this occurs.

1. Agreed, to a degree. I will say from a secular standpoint, the US may be considered a "Christian" nation because it's laws are predominately based on the Bible, the majority of the founders where professing Christians, and Christianity is the dominate religion. However, Christ never endorsed any nation so theologically speaking there is no such thing as a Christian nation.
2. Agreed, to a degree. I believe that the US has been very successful due to it semi-reliance upon Biblical principles. But that is not it's primary role.
3. Agreed, to a degree. I still wonder whether marriage should be dependent upon the gov at all. But I know that there are a lot of practical considerations here (taxes etc); still marriage is ordained by God as one-man-one-woman; if someone breaks that, they have to answer to God for it.
4. Technically yes - as a Christian I do not view myself primarily as an Americal citizen. But I understand that as far as this planet goes I am.
5. Agreed.
6. Agreed.
7. Agreed.
8. Agreed.
9. Agreed, to a degree. The issue is that now you've stepped outside of the Biblical view of government, and now you have no choice but to cherry pick certain commands of Jesus to apply to government. Some of these are easy - "Turn the other cheek" is impossible for a functioning government. But when it comes to issues like immigration, we are left to drift. There's no clear answer to illegal immigration if we're trying to use Jesus' commands as a guide, because Jesus never addressed the issue directly. We have to follow whatever principles seem to fit best, and we rarely agree on which.
10. Agreed.

[Dan]

I live in Arizona legally. If you got here jumping the fence or what ever go home. We respect the law here.

Paper work is no excuse for not following the law.

This State is over run by people laughing in the face of the law, getting emergency health care and never getting a bill. Has nothing to do with race.. what a load of rubbish.

My wife is Latino, and we both support the new law fully..

Bloody Obama

Pray about it and think and feel Christian first and citizen second and I will tell you your heart will change.

Ah yes yet another who hasn't even read the bill but decides to denounce it.

How dare you tell anyone to think & feel Christian. Now you read the bill and pray brother.

[zak89]

Uh oh. I have a feeling this is going to turn nasty...

Maybe we should all take a break and come back after the next election?

[gman]

Just a thought that comes to mind, although admittedly, I'm not reading this thread closely. Does a Christian's responsibility or compunction towards those coming across our southern border and this law, or any similar law, have to be mutually exclusive?
On the matter of food prices being kept low, I'm not so sure that we couldn't solve that problem. We've done amazing things as a nation
Was our country Christian at it's founding? To go absolute one way or the other is probably wrong. To say that someone was not Christian, or not influenced by Christian thought because they did x, y, or z; that could be said of any of us. I do believe that a lot of our history has effectively been taken out of context, rewritten, or scrubbed altogether.

[CatNamedManny]

1. This is a secular, not a Christian, government.
2. As such, the government should not make laws based on the Bible or any other religious text.
3. Among other things, this means, for example, that gay marriage should be allowed (because the sole basis for condemning homosexuality is religious). [Yes, I threw that in partly to be provocative, but I'll come back to it.]
4. Every American citizen is a member of the government.
5. Every Christian has a duty to live according to the values and commands of Christ.
6. Jesus emphasized compassion for the poor, the needy, the downtrodden.
7. Christians therefore should have this same compassion and exercise it within the context of their society.
8. The principles Jesus upheld are generally considered, even by unbelievers, to be universal, timeless moral principles that benefit society as a whole.
9. Governments implementing these universal moral principles can therefore maintain their secular nature while still upholding the principles of Christ.
10. Christians should be happy when this occurs.

1. Agreed, to a degree. I will say from a secular standpoint, the US may be considered a "Christian" nation because it's laws are predominately based on the Bible, the majority of the founders where professing Christians, and Christianity is the dominate religion. However, Christ never endorsed any nation so theologically speaking there is no such thing as a Christian nation.
2. Agreed, to a degree. I believe that the US has been very successful due to it semi-reliance upon Biblical principles. But that is not it's primary role.
3. Agreed, to a degree. I still wonder whether marriage should be dependent upon the gov at all. But I know that there are a lot of practical considerations here (taxes etc); still marriage is ordained by God as one-man-one-woman; if someone breaks that, they have to answer to God for it.
4. Technically yes - as a Christian I do not view myself primarily as an Americal citizen. But I understand that as far as this planet goes I am.
5. Agreed.
6. Agreed.
7. Agreed.
8. Agreed.
9. Agreed, to a degree. The issue is that now you've stepped outside of the Biblical view of government, and now you have no choice but to cherry pick certain commands of Jesus to apply to government. Some of these are easy - "Turn the other cheek" is impossible for a functioning government. But when it comes to issues like immigration, we are left to drift. There's no clear answer to illegal immigration if we're trying to use Jesus' commands as a guide, because Jesus never addressed the issue directly. We have to follow whatever principles seem to fit best, and we rarely agree on which.
10. Agreed.

I'm glad we've found some common ground. I agree with your point on No. 9, which is why I said, "whenever practical." You're right: some of Jesus' specific commands are simply not practical for a government to carry out. But the attitude behind the command absolutely is. A government can't "turn the other cheek," but it should practice patience and mercy -- again, when practical.

With immigration, yes, Jesus did not talk about illegal immigrants. Why would he? That concept was completely foreign in a world where only one nation existed, for all intents and purposes. But he did teach us to love and care for the broken, have compassion for the needy, to care for and shelter the sick and the poor. To the practical extent that our government can do those things, I think it should. Not because it's implementing the commands of Christ, but because it's the right thing to do (Point No. .

[Dan]

Here is a thought,

For some insane reason if one decided to jump the border south illegally what do you think would happen? In all likelihood you would never get a chance to tell.

[Dan]

here is an interesting read http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf it's the bill.

[zak89]

Reading the bill? Nonsense. Pass it already. Then we'll see what's in it.

[CatNamedManny]

here is an interesting read http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf it's the bill.

Given that it's already been enjoined from being put into effect (at least the vast majority of it), it's safe to say that link is fairly irrelevant -- and will become moreso as its unconstitutionality is affirmed and reaffirmed by higher courts.

[CatNamedManny]

Here is a thought,

For some insane reason if one decided to jump the border south illegally what do you think would happen? In all likelihood you would never get a chance to tell.

Mexico also has a culture in which you must pay bribes to the police who stop you to avoid going to jail. I guess we should start doing that here, too. After all, it's what they do in Mexico!

Funny, I thought the United States was supposed to be better than other countries. I must have been mistaken.

[Dan]

Here is a thought,

For some insane reason if one decided to jump the border south illegally what do you think would happen? In all likelihood you would never get a chance to tell.

Mexico also has a culture in which you must pay bribes to the police who stop you to avoid going to jail. I guess we should start doing that here, too. After all, it's what they do in Mexico!

Funny, I thought the United States was supposed to be better than other countries. I must have been mistaken.

The thing is Manny, the US is the best country in the world, from someone who has spent the majority of their life in Australia.

[zak89]

Mexico also has a culture in which you must pay bribes to the police who stop you to avoid going to jail. I guess we should start doing that here, too. After all, it's what they do in Mexico!

Funny, I thought the United States was supposed to be better than other countries. I must have been mistaken.

I think Daniel's point is that no one is condemning Mexico (or any other nation) for broken or unfair immigration policies - just the US.

TBH, I don't think that's anything new.

[Dan]

here is an interesting read http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf it's the bill.

Given that it's already been enjoined from being put into effect (at least the vast majority of it), it's safe to say that link is fairly irrelevant -- and will become moreso as its unconstitutionality is affirmed and reaffirmed by higher courts.

Not really, cause those who were against it have never read it. Have you read it? Didn't think so.

[epdc]

We are talking about people, not robots, not objects. The laws are made to being followed, to bring an order in a society, but we tend to forget that every person in a society is human, and not everything is black and white. I´m sorry to say this, but sometimes life is gray.

I know, I KNOW the law says that it is illegal to pass the boarder without papers, but this is the reality: people are passing illegally, and not all of them are criminals (it really pissed me off when Brent mentioned that), millions of them are people who are desperated, that in a normal situation they wouldnt even consider doing this, but they have to, and honestly, I DONT THINK GOD IS JUDGING THAT PEOPLE. God sees our heart, the man see with his eyes but God looks into your heart, honestly, I dont believe God sees these people as people that "is breaking a law, gotta be punished".

I know you must be thinking: well, if you see it that way, then everyone will disobey that law since if you make it here, they wont take you back because they will see your situation. I dont think that is right either, that the USA would reach a point where EVERYBODY gets in with no consequences.

Maybe this has nothing to do with this, but I´m a teacher, and the rules in one of the places I work in is "4 absences and you are out". I have had students that for health reasons or family problems werent able to attend and have more than 4 abscences, the rules say I have to fail them without a question, but I talk to them and arrange a way for this person to give me all the homeworks, present all the tests and do extra work to let them pass, not with an A but with a minimun.

I receive a book of rules in each school, but I cant be a robot, I cant follow it ALL THE TIME, sometimes I have to adjust things to the situation.

I feel frustrated because this is a gray topic, not a black or white.

Look, I think is ok the boarder is protected (in every country, not the USA) so no illegals can pass. But reality is, some people is allready in there, some of them already have a life, a house, a family over there, a job that an average american wouldnt take. There´s gotta be a way for this person to get legal, to get an opportunity and not inmediately being sent back to his/her homeland without even a chance to explain anything or even picking up their personal stuff. According, to this law, if they see you on the street and the police suspects you are illegal they will ask you for your papers, if you happen to not have them or you do but at your house in the nightstand, they wont let go and get them, they will just send you back and if you dont have them, they wont ask you if you are working, if you have a house, they would send you back with what you have in that moment.

That makes me angry , as I said there should be a system these people can follow to get legal. Some of you say illegal pay taxes others say no they dont, but at the end is this: if they can get legal, they will pay helathcare and taxes and they wont be "burden" as you say.

And I´m not attacking the USA as if Mexico were perfect. In comparison to some people here, I DO recognize my country is not perfect and needs to change. The way we treat illegals is not right either,, our government sucks, the president we have right now is just taking and taking and is not giving. I´m not saying is the USA responsibility to help either. Im just saying there should be a way to help this illegal to get legal without damaging your economy, because I dont think taking them all out is gonna help.... And I say for my sake too, because Mexico´s economy is connected to yours, so if you go down, WE Mexico will go down too....but worse...

And the person that said "the people in Arizona laughs of the law", illegals dont laugh, they hide to not get deported, to keep working and hopefully someday obtain a green card.

I agreed with everything CatNamedManny as said.... And Brent, wow, I´m speechless honestly

[epdc]

and saying that the USA has a christian foundation that´s ok, but just because millions years ago the nation was a true christian (if it was), doesnt mean it now.

My family roots are catholic, but I´m not catholic, I´m a Christian....