Oh no, John Ellis walks away from CCM!

[separateunion]

Sep....this is not about God's grace towards me.

Let's walk down that path just for kicks. That guy had a head knowledge of God. He has access to the same bibles we do. He has access to God just as we do. He has the ability to hear the gospel, accept the gospel, live the gospel just like we do.

There seems to be a false teaching and gross assumption that "Be ye holy for I am holy" means that people can continue to do what they want with their bodies post salvation. This is not true. You are saying to me that I must accept someone's ungodly behavior. No, I don't. I am biblically mandated NOT to accept ungodly behavior. I am to identify it, steer clear of it, and try to change it if I can. Too many people say, "Pray for them." Fine. Prayer is good. But prayer without action is a bogus excercise in making yourself feel good without doing anything about it. This is the American church's approach: pray for change without engaging the people. It does not work.

I am completely against legalism. Listen to my lyrics and you will realize how much I hate conforming to man's ways. I am talking about conforming to GOD's ways. God himself sent messengers to warn people to change their ways. He sent plagues. He sent war. He sent silence. He sent captivity. He will be sending bowls of wrath. So is God not showing grace? Sure he is.

Please show me where I've said that you should accept someone's ungodly behavior. I haven't. Anywhere. Tell me exactly how you are engaging Pete Stewart, because until you actually do, you're doing nothing more than sitting on your high horse judging people who are sinners the same as you. I think a little grace should be extended since we don't know God's plan. How do you know that Pete Stewart won't come back to Christ tomorrow? You don't, but you act as if he is forever lost and judge him for it. This has everything to do with grace. We are saved by grace, the least we could do is show grace towards others, but you not only refuse to do that at every turn, you always have an excuse for why you shouldn't. You need to put your pride in check.

[brent]

Sep....this is not about God's grace towards me.

Let's walk down that path just for kicks. That guy had a head knowledge of God. He has access to the same bibles we do. He has access to God just as we do. He has the ability to hear the gospel, accept the gospel, live the gospel just like we do.

There seems to be a false teaching and gross assumption that "Be ye holy for I am holy" means that people can continue to do what they want with their bodies post salvation. This is not true. You are saying to me that I must accept someone's ungodly behavior. No, I don't. I am biblically mandated NOT to accept ungodly behavior. I am to identify it, steer clear of it, and try to change it if I can. Too many people say, "Pray for them." Fine. Prayer is good. But prayer without action is a bogus excercise in making yourself feel good without doing anything about it. This is the American church's approach: pray for change without engaging the people. It does not work.

I am completely against legalism. Listen to my lyrics and you will realize how much I hate conforming to man's ways. I am talking about conforming to GOD's ways. God himself sent messengers to warn people to change their ways. He sent plagues. He sent war. He sent silence. He sent captivity. He will be sending bowls of wrath. So is God not showing grace? Sure he is.

Please show me where I've said that you should accept someone's ungodly behavior. I haven't. Anywhere. Tell me exactly how you are engaging Pete Stewart, because until you actually do, you're doing nothing more than sitting on your high horse judging people who are sinners the same as you. I think a little grace should be extended since we don't know God's plan. How do you know that Pete Stewart won't come back to Christ tomorrow? You don't, but you act as if he is forever lost and judge him for it. This has everything to do with grace. We are saved by grace, the least we could do is show grace towards others, but you not only refuse to do that at every turn, you always have an excuse for why you shouldn't. You need to put your pride in check.

Read the thread in context. I am not saying YOU specifically said it. I am saying that the person of topic has stated that with his actions. He wants people to be tolerant and not address what is wrong. I am not on a high horse. Of course he could return to God. But I think, based on his own writings, that he wasn't really with God to begin with. Either the bible is right or the bible is not.

Again, God's grace is not the topic at hand. Why are you bringing that up? We are discussing someone leaving God behind based on information learned from his senses. The point is, we have a CCM artist, with no firm foundation in Christ and Christ alone, and he quit because he was disillusioned. He was looking at what people do and basing his desicion to live for God on what others do.

Lets call the kettle it's real color. Let's not mess around. Life is too short. I hope the guy has a come to Jesus moment and lives for God. But he is judging God by humans being human. We are not perfect yet. He must come to a fundamentally firm foundation of faith in Christ and Christ alone, not works, or he never will. There will never be anyone good enough to live up to God's standards, and that is what is important.

Different people have different ministries. If he sees a particular group giving biblical exhortation and correction, and he doesn't like it, then that is just too bad. That is a part of Christian life. The bible is full of stories where people are called out. There is no Osteen in the bible.

[gman]

I really like Paul Alan. The style and quality of his music is excellent. He had a quote on his website that said something like, I'm Christian but I don't speak the language. For some artists, the translation on that would be that they will admit to being Christian, but publicly and lyrically they do their best to keep their faith in the closet. That's not much of a faith. Paul is the opposite. His lyrics are overtly Christian. So, I take his statement to mean that he is not, and doesn't want to be, someone who knows all the big Christian words and puts up appearances once or twice a week. He is someone who wrestles with God and works out his salvation on a daily basis, which goes along with Paul's charge to "search the scriptures and see if these things are true".
One of his new songs, Come to Jesus, is the bomb for me.

This is for the weary and the weak
This is for the desperate and ashamed
This is for the hopeless hiding in the shadows
Cupping hands around a flicker faith

This is for the ones who don't belong
This is for the silent castaways
This is for the sinner peaking through the stained glass
From a sidewalk in the cold driving rain

We all fall down, we all need saving
Once in a awhile you are not alone
We all lose faith and lean on mercy
Through our darkest night He said He'd wait for us
Come to Jesus

To anyone who's given up on God
To those who've tripped and fallen out of grace
To anyone who's looking to the bottom of a bottle
For the strength to make it through another day

We all fall down, we all need saving
Once in a awhile you are not alone
We all lose faith and lean on mercy
Through our darkest night He said He'd wait for us
Come to Jesus

He did not come raise the living
Or touch the eyes of those who see
It was for the bitter and burned out
It was for the unforgivable
It was for the failure standing on the bridge
Cause the guilt's too high a price to pay to live

We all fall down, we all need saving
Once in a awhile you are not alone
We all lose faith and lean on mercy
Through our darkest night He said He'd wait for us
Come to Jesus


Love it! How many times a day are we Peter or Thomas, or David at his worst? How often do we come to Jesus?

[corolla1]

The difference here is that it appears that Pete Stewart and/or John Ellis have totally departed from the faith. This is more than mere backsliding, it is flat out apostasy. If this is true, Pete Stewart and/or John Ellis were never saved in the first place. In addition, it may not be possible for them to come to a place of repentence. Check out Hebrews 6:4-6. It is sad and scary.

[executioner]

Sep....this is not about God's grace towards me.

Let's walk down that path just for kicks. That guy had a head knowledge of God. He has access to the same bibles we do. He has access to God just as we do. He has the ability to hear the gospel, accept the gospel, live the gospel just like we do.

There seems to be a false teaching and gross assumption that "Be ye holy for I am holy" means that people can continue to do what they want with their bodies post salvation. This is not true. You are saying to me that I must accept someone's ungodly behavior. No, I don't. I am biblically mandated NOT to accept ungodly behavior. I am to identify it, steer clear of it, and try to change it if I can. Too many people say, "Pray for them." Fine. Prayer is good. But prayer without action is a bogus excercise in making yourself feel good without doing anything about it. This is the American church's approach: pray for change without engaging the people. It does not work.

I am completely against legalism. Listen to my lyrics and you will realize how much I hate conforming to man's ways. I am talking about conforming to GOD's ways. God himself sent messengers to warn people to change their ways. He sent plagues. He sent war. He sent silence. He sent captivity. He will be sending bowls of wrath. So is God not showing grace? Sure he is.

Brent I totally agree; you put the nail in the coffin on this one.

[executioner]

The difference here is that it appears that Pete Stewart and/or John Ellis have totally departed from the faith. This is more than mere backsliding, it is flat out apostasy. If this is true, Pete Stewart and/or John Ellis were never saved in the first place. In addition, it may not be possible for them to come to a place of repentence. Check out Hebrews 6:4-6. It is sad and scary.

I believe the same; These guys were never Christians in the first place,just trying to be part of the popular trend or group. I'm on the believe system that you cannot loose your salvation.

[corolla1]

The difference here is that it appears that Pete Stewart and/or John Ellis have totally departed from the faith. This is more than mere backsliding, it is flat out apostasy. If this is true, Pete Stewart and/or John Ellis were never saved in the first place. In addition, it may not be possible for them to come to a place of repentence. Check out Hebrews 6:4-6. It is sad and scary.

I believe the same; These guys were never Christians in the first place,just trying to be part of the popular trend or group. I'm on the believe system that you cannot loose your salvation.

I agree with you.

[separateunion]

In addition, it may not be possible for them to come to a place of repentence. Check out Hebrews 6:4-6. It is sad and scary.

Well, I'm screwed, then. I fell away from the faith for several years and most people who observed me would have told you that I was no longer a Christian. (On a side note, I don't know how you can have both never been a Christian AND tasted the things of God at the same time.) Guess I'll toss my faith aside since there's no hope of me ever coming back to Christ. Oh, wait...

[executioner]

These 2 guys were never Christians in the first place; they played the game. Its very plain to see by their comments they were looking at men and didnt have their eyes on God. One sounds like he got burned in CCM and is denying God because of it; The other sounds like he is on the verge of denying that God is not even real and is some type of fantasy.
Both of these guys can come to Christ in the future, but to think they were ever there and acting like they are now is blind and naive.

[executioner]

In addition, it may not be possible for them to come to a place of repentence. Check out Hebrews 6:4-6. It is sad and scary.

Well, I'm screwed, then. I fell away from the faith for several years and most people who observed me would have told you that I was no longer a Christian. (On a side note, I don't know how you can have both never been a Christian AND tasted the things of God at the same time.) Guess I'll toss my faith aside since there's no hope of me ever coming back to Christ. Oh, wait...

Your not screwed, you just never was there. You are totally living now for God and you are truly a Christian then you are in His arms and He will never forsake you.

[Shell]

What exactly is the definition of "falling away"? Having questions or having a crisis where you wonder what it's all about doesn't necessarily equal "falling away" and it certainly doesn't mean God has given up on you or that you can't learn to trust God with your issues or questions.

I think we all go through times when we question our faith and/or wonder if God is really who He says He is. I had some bad church experiences growing up and went through a time where I thought the whole church scene sucked and if that was Christianity, well then I could do without it. It's part of the learning experience. I didn't have a problem with God; it was all those hypocrites calling themselves Christians I had trouble with.

I came to realize that wasn't what Christianity was about and I couldn't look to the people, I needed to keep my eyes on God. God wasn't the one letting me down; I was focusing too much on the people and some of the garbage that can go on in churches.

I go to a church now that sincerely does have a desire to follow God and emphasizes living for God in every area of your life. And I have learned that although church is important, it is only a small part of what being a Christian is about.

CCM certainly isn't a shining example of Christianity by the way.

[corolla1]

In addition, it may not be possible for them to come to a place of repentence. Check out Hebrews 6:4-6. It is sad and scary.

Well, I'm screwed, then. I fell away from the faith for several years and most people who observed me would have told you that I was no longer a Christian. (On a side note, I don't know how you can have both never been a Christian AND tasted the things of God at the same time.) Guess I'll toss my faith aside since there's no hope of me ever coming back to Christ. Oh, wait...

I guess you didn't read my post closely enough. I don't know their hearts only God does. I was just saying it was possible that this scripture applies to them. I hope that is not the case, but it is not looking good for them at the moment. In your case, remember there is a difference between backsliding and apostasy. You came back which means you backslid. A person who falls into apostasy walks away from the faith and never comes back. The fact that you did is evidence you are the real deal. Hopefully, they come back too. As for tasting the things of God, all men experience the good things of God. It is often called common grace. But most people aren't saved. The Jews for example got to experience the blessings of God during the Exodus, but most of them died in the wilderness. Matthew 7:21 says that not all who call me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Many people will make a profession of faith, but they aren't real. These people also had some kind of experience with God, just not one that leads to true salvation.

[Vic]

Sounds like they needed a hot meal and two good night sleep before they contemplated walking away from Truth like Elijah the Prophet.

[executioner]

I think Brent has made the best point about on how most CCM artists today are really just playing the game. To be honest we don't know anyone's heart and most of them probably have us fooled into thinking their Godly people.
We had at our church a couple years back a band that five youth had started in the church and were really good; had strong Christian lyrics and everyone thought they all were strong Christians, but just after they had all finished high school and were getting ready to go to college the lead singer and Drummer(both males) came out and said they had been sleeping together since early jr high school and both have since gone on to live in that unchristian lifestyle.
These two were really the focal point, lyric writers, and leadership of the band. It was a shock to everyone because no one ever thought this was possible.
we have too realize these artists are human just like us and they sin as much as any of us, but we continue to put them up there as Godly ministers and that is just wrong.

[Shell]

we have too realize these artists are human just like us and they sin as much as any of us, but we continue to put them up there as Godly ministers and that is just wrong.

I've said that sort of thing a number of times. Sure, it's wrong for them to claim to be Christians and then do drugs, drink, sleep around, and so on, but there are any number of people claiming to be Christians (or who are churchgoers) you don't hear about doing that. It's not more wrong for someone in the music biz. Sure, it's their own sinful behavior and a fair amount of stupidity that makes them live that way, but I believe the public's tendency to put them on pedestals and think they're above it is a big contributing factor.