Two interesting links

A place for Petra fans to discuss other topics
Post Reply
User avatar
knotodiswrld
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:42 pm
#1 Album: This Means War
Pethead since: 1984
x 1

Re: Two interesting links

Post by knotodiswrld » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:25 pm

Right, like no other country has strange laws and taxes. I'm sure there's a province of Canada with the highest incidence of obesity, or divorce, or whatever, in the country. All that map proves is that someone has too much time on their hands.

I don't see that this sort of thing really belongs here.
Ephesians 4:29-30 wrote:EPH 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Intentionally tweaking others, or just trying to get a response, isn't really in accordance with scripture. We need to be careful what we say to each other, monitoring every word to make sure that it is helpful for building up our brothers and sisters, never for tearing them down.
0 x
The Master of The Earth became a servant of no worth
And paid a kings ransom for my soul

executioner
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 3947
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:56 am
#1 Album: JAH
Pethead since: 1980
Location: Earth
x 55

Re: Two interesting links

Post by executioner » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:27 am

When George Bush was elected governor of Texas the high school graduation rate was like 62% so he put in place some education reform that not only holds the kid responsible but the teachers and parents also. Since the early 90's Texas also has the highest number of school age kids than any other state.
0 x
FORGIVE! FORGET! & LET GO!

User avatar
knotodiswrld
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:42 pm
#1 Album: This Means War
Pethead since: 1984
x 1

Re: Two interesting links

Post by knotodiswrld » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:40 am

Matthew RJ wrote:Oh my bad. I should know by now that this isn't tolerated here.
It shouldn't be tolerated anywhere in the Body of Christ. It should certainly not be tolerated by any individual believer in his/her own life. The Body of Christ should be above this.
John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Jesus called us to love one another. This is how people will know we are His ... how they will know we are different. This will be what convinces the world that we have something they do not.

If, however, on a website supporting the biggest Christian Rock Band of all time, the world sees no love and instead sees bickering and belittling of each other over such things as what country we are from, why should they believe that Christianity has anything to offer them?
1 John 4:20 20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
Loving each other is a requirement. The scripture is plain. If we do not love each other, it is not even possible that we love God and anyone who says differently is lying.

Love cannot grow without action. Love is not just a feeling. It is a way of behaving toward others. Since this is only a website and not an actual, physical community, our behavior will be largely restricted to our words and what we say to each other. Thus our words must be kind and loving, with no one saying something just to get a rise or a reaction, or saying something with the intent of insulting or belittling someone.

We can have discussions about controversial topics without belittling or insulting. Below I have posted some examples of how some very controversial topics can be discussed in this manner, without anyone getting mad or insulted, and yet with people holding firm to their convictions. I highly recommend reading them as a learning experience.

On the idea of a single, universal, church organization: http://forums.thestonetable.com/viewtopic.php?t=2986

On War, Politics, and Christianity: http://forums.thestonetable.com/viewtop ... e291b3f020

On the comparison between Genesis and C.S. Lewis' "Magician's Nephew": http://forums.thestonetable.com/viewtop ... be2f2e30ac

And that discussion spawned this one on whether the Bible is literally True: http://forums.thestonetable.com/viewtop ... b84a6e756c

On education and Christianity: http://forums.thestonetable.com/viewtop ... c&start=50

If you visit the website with the posts above, please excuse the horrendous mess. We are currently under Spam Attack. The mods are working to address the issue.
0 x
The Master of The Earth became a servant of no worth
And paid a kings ransom for my soul

User avatar
knotodiswrld
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:42 pm
#1 Album: This Means War
Pethead since: 1984
x 1

Re: Two interesting links

Post by knotodiswrld » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:10 am

Matthew RJ wrote:America is not immune to criticism.
I am unaware of anyone saying that it was, and I fail to see why you would feel the need to say that. Has someone, at some point, suggested that any particular nation is immune to criticism?

However, criticism for no particular reason just isn't right. Criticism just to get a reaction from others is, by definition, not in keeping with Scripture's command to build one another up. It is, in fact, quite the opposite.

So, I am not sure how the phrase "America is not immune to criticism" fits into this discussion.
Matthew RJ wrote:personal insult would be to say "You must be from an ugly state."
Isn't that pretty much what you did? I'm not trying to be nasty. Really. I thought that's precisely what you were saying.
Matthew RJ wrote:Get off your high horse and stop being so self righteous.
A higher horse helps you get over sword over your opponent's shield. Of course, the opposing foot soldiers very much wanted the knights to "get off their high horses", but it was from the vantage point of the high horse that a knight or a commander could more clearly see the field of battle.

"Get off your high horse," has always sounded like foolish advice to me.
0 x
The Master of The Earth became a servant of no worth
And paid a kings ransom for my soul

CatNamedManny
Pethead Wikipedia Warrior
Pethead Wikipedia Warrior
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 3:28 pm
#1 Album: On Fire!
Pethead since: 1996
x 1

Re: Two interesting links

Post by CatNamedManny » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:55 am

Not bad living in Ohio, the "nerdiest state."

A lot of those taxes actually make sense, as they're vice taxes, instituted to discourage consumption of unhealthy food or participation in addictive or socially destructive activities. Engaging in those activities increase the cost to the state (i.e., taxpayers), as well as health insurance premiums, etc. So it makes sense that people choosing to engage in destructive behavior (eating candy, drinking soda, visiting strip clubs and casinos, what have you) pay for the cost they are passing along to society at large.

Living in Texas, I can assure you it remains an abysmal state for education. Educators of all political stripes agree that the standardized tests instituted during the Bush governorship have been a complete failure, as they have been at the national level under the much-reviled No Child Left Behind Act. And that doesn't even get into the amazingly horrible Texas State Board of Education's recent curriculum decisions.
0 x
- Paul

A little disoriented. Getting reoriented.

User avatar
knotodiswrld
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:42 pm
#1 Album: This Means War
Pethead since: 1984
x 1

Re: Two interesting links

Post by knotodiswrld » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:47 pm

Matthew RJ wrote:It's sound advice when the Scriptures say a great deal about being humble.
It is true. They do. But I'm unclear as to what horses have to do with pride or humility.

Any way, we're getting off the subject. My point was that if we aren't going to build each other up, we are wasting our time here as Christians. We should build each other up or remain silent. I am a little surprised to find any resistance to this idea amongst fellow believers.
0 x
The Master of The Earth became a servant of no worth
And paid a kings ransom for my soul

executioner
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 3947
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:56 am
#1 Album: JAH
Pethead since: 1980
Location: Earth
x 55

Re: Two interesting links

Post by executioner » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:43 pm

CatNamedManny wrote:Not bad living in Ohio, the "nerdiest state."

A lot of those taxes actually make sense, as they're vice taxes, instituted to discourage consumption of unhealthy food or participation in addictive or socially destructive activities. Engaging in those activities increase the cost to the state (i.e., taxpayers), as well as health insurance premiums, etc. So it makes sense that people choosing to engage in destructive behavior (eating candy, drinking soda, visiting strip clubs and casinos, what have you) pay for the cost they are passing along to society at large.

Living in Texas, I can assure you it remains an abysmal state for education. Educators of all political stripes agree that the standardized tests instituted during the Bush governorship have been a complete failure, as they have been at the national level under the much-reviled No Child Left Behind Act. And that doesn't even get into the amazingly horrible Texas State Board of Education's recent curriculum decisions.

I was born and raised in Ohio, and the main reasons for moving was the 1. job market 2. high taxes.

Paying all those taxes are unreasonable and in some cases just downright ethically wrong. One of the reasons why Ohio and other states that tax their residents so much are in such dire straits money wise is because of this type of taxing system that you quoted above. The three poorest states in the Union are also the three highest taxed states.

1. Mississippi
2. West Virginia
3. Louisiana

I thank God for all the blessings that he has brought to my family by living in Texas. Texans do not have to pay a sales tax on food items that have a nutritional value, and plus in our area as of right now we pay about $1.50 for a gallon of milk and our cost of living in about the lowest out of any state. We also pay $39.95 per yr for state inspection and $50 per year on state tags for are cars. Most states make you pay a percentage tax on what the car in worth which in some cases can run into the thousands for a person.
0 x
FORGIVE! FORGET! & LET GO!

executioner
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 3947
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:56 am
#1 Album: JAH
Pethead since: 1980
Location: Earth
x 55

Re: Two interesting links

Post by executioner » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:25 pm

CatNamedManny wrote:Not bad living in Ohio, the "nerdiest state."

A lot of those taxes actually make sense, as they're vice taxes, instituted to discourage consumption of unhealthy food or participation in addictive or socially destructive activities. Engaging in those activities increase the cost to the state (i.e., taxpayers), as well as health insurance premiums, etc. So it makes sense that people choosing to engage in destructive behavior (eating candy, drinking soda, visiting strip clubs and casinos, what have you) pay for the cost they are passing along to society at large.

Living in Texas, I can assure you it remains an abysmal state for education. Educators of all political stripes agree that the standardized tests instituted during the Bush governorship have been a complete failure, as they have been at the national level under the much-reviled No Child Left Behind Act. And that doesn't even get into the amazingly horrible Texas State Board of Education's recent curriculum decisions.
We are all unperfect and I agree the No Child Left Behind has alot of items that really do not help, but before Bush came along Texas was just down right horrible in education. We have made great strides and are on our way up; This is something that will take a long time to get right.
Also your quote of "Educators of all political stripes" seems to be somewhat overblown , because this past summer the State Board of Education(which is made up entirely of educators) voted 14-1 to continue this, and also the Teachers Union voted by a margin of 61% in favor of keeping the current system.

On another note about the Texas state Board of Educations curriculum decisions; What did you find so dismal about it? I will show you what I find great about it as a conservative Christian that is putting my kids through the Texas Public Schools System as we speak.

1. Creation as a viable option- Unlike most other states they have demanded that this not only be in the books but be taught by the educators. All other states have Evolution as fact and most don't even teach Creation at all. Evolution is now taught as THEORY only in the State of Texas.
2. Omitting items in our nations history showing that the U.S.A. was formed and built on Biblical Principle's- The left wing Democrats wanted this to become the case but the Conservative Christian Base fought to have these items included and are still in the books as of today.
3. Keeping the Gettysburg Address in text books- ACLU has cried foul on this stating that some portions of The Gettysburg Address violates everyone's Civil Rights. I know at one time MLK tried everything in his power to get the State of Georgia to omit this from text books. Too be honest with you I'm not sure why they believe it violates someone's Civil rights.
4. Keeping Abstinence as the most viable option- This was something that everyone fought hard over and it was keep in the system as is. Most states now say the only way is protection and only a few even have abstinence as a option.
5. Keeping the U.S. Constitution and The Bill of Rights in the text books- The liberals wanted both of these omitted from the text books, but it was kept in and also each student during middle school are required to memorize both and also most school districts require high school students to write thesis on these.

These are just a few items that our "horrible" Texas State Board of Education fought to keep in the text books and schools.
0 x
FORGIVE! FORGET! & LET GO!

User avatar
zak89
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:16 pm
#1 Album: Petra Praise 2
Pethead since: 2002
x 16

Re: Two interesting links

Post by zak89 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:41 pm

<gulp>
0 x

CatNamedManny
Pethead Wikipedia Warrior
Pethead Wikipedia Warrior
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 3:28 pm
#1 Album: On Fire!
Pethead since: 1996
x 1

Re: Two interesting links

Post by CatNamedManny » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:09 pm

executioner wrote: We are all unperfect and I agree the No Child Left Behind has alot of items that really do not help, but before Bush came along Texas was just down right horrible in education. We have made great strides and are on our way up; This is something that will take a long time to get right.
Also your quote of "Educators of all political stripes" seems to be somewhat overblown , because this past summer the State Board of Education(which is made up entirely of educators) voted 14-1 to continue this, and also the Teachers Union voted by a margin of 61% in favor of keeping the current system.
The State Board of Education does not consist of educators. It consists of popularly elected officials and political appointees. The qualifications consist solely of being at least 26 years old and a resident of the district you hope to represent (as well as not being a lobbyist or already an elected official and some other conflict-of-interesty things). I'm not sure what you're citing with the teachers union thing, but the Texas Federation of Teachers called for an overhaul of the state's standardized-testing system. The Legislature voted to do away with the TAKS test as a result of massive bipartisan opposition to it. And when I say "educators of all political stripes," I mean teachers I personally have talked to, who are very conservative politically yet hate the testing system that was put in place under the two George W. Bush administrations.
On another note about the Texas state Board of Educations curriculum decisions; What did you find so dismal about it? I will show you what I find great about it as a conservative Christian that is putting my kids through the Texas Public Schools System as we speak.

1. Creation as a viable option- Unlike most other states they have demanded that this not only be in the books but be taught by the educators. All other states have Evolution as fact and most don't even teach Creation at all. Evolution is now taught as THEORY only in the State of Texas.
No problems with this. Evolution is a scientific theory, not a law; it should be taught that way. Creation, on the other hand, is a religious belief, and should be taught along with other religious beliefs about how the world began, with evidences for and against all of them. I doubt that's how the board ultimately ruled on it though.
2. Omitting items in our nations history showing that the U.S.A. was formed and built on Biblical Principle's- The left wing Democrats wanted this to become the case but the Conservative Christian Base fought to have these items included and are still in the books as of today.
I think I've discussed ad nauseum the reason why this country's founders mistrusted religion and based the government on the secular principles of the Enlightenment. James Madison, Father of the Constitution, was an atheist; George Washington refused to kneel in church, Thomas Jefferson created his own Bible by cutting out all the passages referring to Christ's divinity, John Adams signed a treaty with the Barbary States stating that America was in no way a "Christian country," etc. We can throw quotes at each other all day long, but the founders were very careful about their legacy and knew they couldn't afford to be seen as blasphemous or areligious, so they were very political in their obeisance to the idea of faith while generally rejecting the Christian faith as we know it. As proof, I'd count the number of times the word "God" -- or any of the other deistic euphemisms they used (Creator," Architect," "Watch-Maker", all of which imply a God who made things and then sat back to let it run independently from Him) -- is used in the Constitution.
3. Keeping the Gettysburg Address in text books- ACLU has cried foul on this stating that some portions of The Gettysburg Address violates everyone's Civil Rights. I know at one time MLK tried everything in his power to get the State of Georgia to omit this from text books. Too be honest with you I'm not sure why they believe it violates someone's Civil rights.
This is ridiculous. What the board did was elevate Jefferson Davis' inaugural address as president of the Confederacy to a level with Lincoln's first inaugural (not Gettysburg), requiring students to compare and contrast the two. Maybe this was good, maybe it wasn't, but if anything the board watered down the importance of a Lincoln speech by equating it with Davis'. Do you have a link showing where the ACLU has criticized the Gettysburg Address? Because I can't find any evidence of that.
4. Keeping Abstinence as the most viable option- This was something that everyone fought hard over and it was keep in the system as is. Most states now say the only way is protection and only a few even have abstinence as a option.
I can't find anywhere saying the board actually did anything like this, but it's worth noting that most districts in Texas do not merely have abstinence as part of their education, but teach "abstinence-only" education, which is problematic because teenagers are simply not going to have a 100 percent abstinence rate, sad though that is. If the schools are not teaching contraception as a way to prevent disease and unwanted pregnancy in the event someone does decide not to be abstinent, then the rates of unwanted pregnancy, STDs and abortions go up. Which probably explains why Texas was third in teen pregnancies in 2008. CDC data show that teens in Texas have unprotected s3x "far more often" than the national average, and that states that have an "abstinence-plus" curriculum have rates below the national average.

Because of such terrible results, school districts on their own in the past two years have begun reversing their abstinence-only policies and turning them into abstinence-plus policies. I don't see any problem with teaching that abstinence is the only sure-fire way to prevent disease and pregnancy, but if you're going to do the deed, then you need to use protection. That's simply acknowledging reality.
5. Keeping the U.S. Constitution and The Bill of Rights in the text books- The liberals wanted both of these omitted from the text books, but it was kept in and also each student during middle school are required to memorize both and also most school districts require high school students to write thesis on these.
There is also no evidence that I can find that this is true. The major disagreement that I can find is over the Second Amendment, but not over the actual Constitution and Bill of Rights. It fits a fun narrative that "liberals" hate the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but it's simply not true.

As for what I found objectionable about the TBOE decisions, beyond what I mentioned above:

1. Apologizing for McCarthyism
2. Rejecting the inclusion of influential Hispanics/Latinos
3. Calling into question separation of church and state
4. Equalizing the Black Panthers with MLK in the civil rights movement
5. Numerous other changes that, while historically accurate, were clearly done to push a political viewpoint, to settle political scores or simply out of sheer pettiness, as opposed to any eye toward what was truly the most relevant historical information to include.
0 x
- Paul

A little disoriented. Getting reoriented.

User avatar
zak89
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:16 pm
#1 Album: Petra Praise 2
Pethead since: 2002
x 16

Re: Two interesting links

Post by zak89 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:26 pm

Now THAT's a funny comeback, Matthew! :lol: Nice being in the "Bellwether State"...
0 x

brent
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Extreme Pethead Fanatic
Posts: 4305
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:06 am
x 148

Re: Two interesting links

Post by brent » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:44 am

First of all, that map is stupid.

Second of all, No Child Left Behind has some good motives, and served Bush politically. I guess Mrs Bush thought it was a good idea. But what does she know? She hasn't taught in years, did not have to teach or manage school funds under it....and surely did not have to teach in a school that was fine before it was implemented, but in the crapper afterwords.

Education needs to be left to the STATES and CITYs. A centralized, Federal board of education is not a good idea. It has been proven so since it was implemented here. It is a political labor union that happens to be tied to education. It has no bearing on success. The fact that the USA is no longer the leader in education is proof.

BTW, my wife is a teacher, and I hear and see things that make me want to mount up and go to Washington. It is a disgrace what politicians can do to children.

It is a shame that the schools have to be mommy and daddy. I used to think that the parents should be held accountable. But honestly, some of these parents are not that smart, and are doing all they can do to live and breath. Some of the parents both work two full time jobs and only see their kids in the weekends. Some of them do drugs and just suck at being responsible humans. The school has to be more than school because there are just too many people having kids that should not be having kids and should be incarcerated, in treatment, in education or something themselves. People reproduce themselves. When they do, the cycle continues. The sins actions, traits, sins, etc repeat over and over again.
0 x

User avatar
knotodiswrld
Pethead
Pethead
Posts: 257
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:42 pm
#1 Album: This Means War
Pethead since: 1984
x 1

Re: Two interesting links

Post by knotodiswrld » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:37 am

"No Child Left Behind" -- That's the book where all the kids disappear and the Anti-Barney get's his own TV show ... right?
0 x
The Master of The Earth became a servant of no worth
And paid a kings ransom for my soul

CatNamedManny
Pethead Wikipedia Warrior
Pethead Wikipedia Warrior
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 3:28 pm
#1 Album: On Fire!
Pethead since: 1996
x 1

Re: Two interesting links

Post by CatNamedManny » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:02 pm

brent wrote:First of all, that map is stupid.

Second of all, No Child Left Behind has some good motives, and served Bush politically. I guess Mrs Bush thought it was a good idea. But what does she know? She hasn't taught in years, did not have to teach or manage school funds under it....and surely did not have to teach in a school that was fine before it was implemented, but in the crapper afterwords.

Education needs to be left to the STATES and CITYs. A centralized, Federal board of education is not a good idea. It has been proven so since it was implemented here. It is a political labor union that happens to be tied to education. It has no bearing on success. The fact that the USA is no longer the leader in education is proof.

BTW, my wife is a teacher, and I hear and see things that make me want to mount up and go to Washington. It is a disgrace what politicians can do to children.

It is a shame that the schools have to be mommy and daddy. I used to think that the parents should be held accountable. But honestly, some of these parents are not that smart, and are doing all they can do to live and breath. Some of the parents both work two full time jobs and only see their kids in the weekends. Some of them do drugs and just suck at being responsible humans. The school has to be more than school because there are just too many people having kids that should not be having kids and should be incarcerated, in treatment, in education or something themselves. People reproduce themselves. When they do, the cycle continues. The sins actions, traits, sins, etc repeat over and over again.
This is about where I'm at. I understand the desire for people to say education should not be a government business. But obviously doing that means losing thousands upon thousands of children every year. At some point, someone has to step in.

As to federal vs. states and local, meh. I've seen enough of incompetent local and state school boards to know that wouldn't cure much. It would simply exacerbate the district-by-district and state-by-state we already see in the system. The U.S. has certainly slipped in the world, for various reasons, but the countries ahead of us have federalized education systems, too. We need to look at what they're doing right/better; scrapping the system at this point is not tenable.
0 x
- Paul

A little disoriented. Getting reoriented.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 67 guests