Faith & Freedom ...the other side

[executioner]

The impression I get from your choices over John's F&F is that you feel the song puts the flag over the Cross; which couldn't be farther from the truth. I'm an American and I am proud to be one, but the Cross is above and beyond anything else in my life, and I know John feels the same way about his life.

[executioner]

The impression I get from your choices over John's F&F is that you feel the song puts the flag over the Cross; which couldn't be farther from the truth. I'm an American and I am proud to be one, but the Cross is above and beyond anything else in my life, and I know John feels the same way about his life.

If that's true, it is genuinely hard to tell by those who are not American.

All I am saying is the songs I mention above have a very different tone and message when compared with John's new American National Anthem.

Yeah, but by your last comments you are throwing all Americans(including the Christians) in the same boat and saying that we put the flag above the Cross. If you think we do then you are blind and naive.

[Preacherman777]

I don't think any American Christians put the flag above the cross. That is nothing but a strawman put out there so people can pick at us. Rather, it is our hope that this nation will continue to be grounded in Christianity, just as it was founded. If we put the flag on the cross, that is a statement that we wish this to continue to be one nation under God. It is about America being subject to God and not the other way around. Those lyrics totally lost me when they said the line about Jesus being a white, male republican as if anyone other than race card playing Democrats has really tried to advance that stereotype.

[Boray]

The Swedish flag IS a Christian cross, on a blue background. A golden cross and heaven behind it if you so will. I think most swedes choose to not even see this though.

[Preacherman777]

Sorry Matthew, but both of those statements show great ignorance. Who is perpetrating that lie? Certainly not Republicans or conservatives. And as for your accusation that Republicans or conservatives want to put the flag above or over the cross, dude, you're just clueless if you really believe that.

[Preacherman777]

First, that wasn't a personal attack. If I said you are a big fat stupid idiot, that would be a personal attack. I said, if you really believe that, you are clueless, meaning you have no idea what you are talking about. That's just an opinion. There is nothing about the song that wraps Christianity in the flag, but rather as I said, we'd like to see the flag remain subject to God just as it always had been. Although America was not by any means founded to be a Christian theocracy, it was founded upon Christian values and Christian traditions and written into it's constitution is a direction that congress should never make laws affecting the free exercise of religion. All those things have been falling by the way side and the free exercise of Christianity has been under attack for many years and things are only getting worse. Therefore, what you are seeing is way of peaceful protest against the abuses of the American government, which have been working against a specific religion. Even though America was designed to be a nation tolerant of all belief systems, it was never designed to deny anyone their religious freedoms and yet, that is exactly what now happens here. For nearly 200 years, Christians were free to openly celebrate their faith, but starting nearly 50 years ago, we are now being driven out of society and things just keep getting worse. So, this is my point, I just don't think you really understand. Having said that, there is also something else you need to understand. There is one political party these days that expresses interest in protecting our religious freedoms and in defending those values that matter most to Christian people and there is one that doesn't. So it should come as no surprise, that for those Christians who place a high value on those freedoms and values (that made America great) we tend to support the side that fights for our interests. However, Republicans are not always the firm standing conservatives we'd like them to be, so there is actually a great deal of discontentment with the Republicans these days, which is the reason for the Tea Party movement, but for all their flaws, they are still a better option than what we get from the other side and many of us are doing our best to fight for reform within the Republican party, that they may lose their progressive influences, and return to the true conservatism that once defined them. So no, the church is not in the back pocket of Republicans.

[executioner]

It certainly is a personal attack to call someone clueless and is totally inappropriate for this forum, or in any other context for that matter.

I think some American patriotism borders on idolatry. The cross and the US flag becomes indistinguishable, again from an outsider's point of view. For religious persecution, see China, Egypt, Iran, Iraq (did you know there are Christians in Iraq?!) ....

You can the same for Canada and any other nation for that matter. I will tell you right now that you would not like it here in Texas; the state flag is everywhere, and we actually see more Texas State Flags than U.S. Flags.


I'm proud to be an American Citizen, but my faith will always overshadow it and everything else in my life.

[Preacherman777]

Yes, Matthew, I'm well aware there are Christians in Iraq and I am certainly not saying that the religious persecution going on here is comparable to what's happening to Christians in other parts of the world, but America use to be a beacon of hope for religious freedom and an oasis in a world where religious freedoms were not really known. The point is, that is now going away. We are losing it and losing it fast. It's only a matter of time before things will get just as bad as they are in those other parts of the world, because we are no longer fighting to preserve those rights our forefathers fought and died for.

One again, saying I believe you are clueless on this matter, is not a personal attack. It's expressing an opinion that I don't think you know what you are talking about. I didn't call you ugly or stupid or evil or anything like that. I expressed an opinion, but I guess since you don't seem to think much of America and it's rights, you probably don't have much appreciation for my freedom to express my opinion. I guess all us foolish Americans just need to sit back and accept without question whatever Matthew says.

[Preacherman777]

No, I'm not terrified. I know who my God is and there is no reason to live in fear of what men do. However, I am disheartened. It's difficult to rejoice over the loss of religious freedom and freedom in general. America was the only nation that was founded on the belief that our right as people come from God rather than the state, but the state is now turning it's back on that belief.

[executioner]

I think the end of fear is closer than we realize. Good points Preacher.

[executioner]

I never knew there was a loss of religious freedom going on in the US. The persecution must be fierce and so intense, I truly can't imagine what you are going through.

Your sarcasm is not only ill timed, but is downright tasteless. It's amazing someone of Christian faith can live with so much hatred towards something.

[andreasbjerre]

Preacherman said :" It's only a matter of time before things will get just as bad as they are in those other parts of the world".

Saying "those other parts of the world" you must be referring to China, Egypt, Iran, Iraq that mathew just mentioned. I dont hope you are serious? I know that things have been easier for christians in the US, but that sounds like a conspiracy and in a way its a derision against those who are truly beeing persecuted for their belief in those countries.


Preacherman said: "Although America was not by any means founded to be a Christian theocracy, it was founded upon Christian values and Christian traditions and written into it's constitution is a direction that congress should never make laws affecting the free exercise of religion"

It seems that a lot of american christians are very focused on the value "freedom", and with freedom they meen economically freedom, but are at the same time forgetting other christian values. Lots of americans would say that its a loss of freedom to pay high taxes and then getting a better health care system, better oppotunities for education etc. I just want to ask you a question: Do you think that you feel free to do "anything in life" if your family can't pay for a reasonable education?
Its easy for middle class americans to talk about freedom, but for the lowest social classes of society I'm not sure you always feel as free as if you had better opputunities for an education. I know that I am raised in a european country, and that politics over here are much more socialistic. But I just want to challenge you on your fundemental views on what freedom really is.

I know I will never agree with reepublicans on politics and as long as you dont make Jesus a hostage in your political campaigns it fine by me. Its a good thing to fight for christian values, but to make an argument in politics with the bible in your hand - its not a good idea. True christian values are so pure and good that you can make a perfectly good argument without using the bible.

[rexreed]

Some pretty narrow minded viewpoints in the zone lately.

[zman7720000]

[Preacherman777]

It's not about Republican or Democrat for me. I could care less about either party as both parties are in many ways corrupt. It's about Christian values and principles and who is will to fight for them and who is fighting against them. By and large, the ones fighting hardest against them are on the left. Freedom matters to me because it's what our country was founded on and it's what so many people gave their lives for. It's not all about economics. If you believe that, you don't understand. Personally, I grew up poor, dirt poor, and I've seen what keeps you poor and I've seen what gets you on your feet and I can guarantee you that government is not the reason I'm middle class today. Hard work, sacrifice and responsibility, charity and the blessings of God are what saw me and my family through and they are the things that will see anybody through if they would learn to rely on them rather than the government.