Ecclesiology

[winterlens]

That hits one of the drums I'm beating. The object of worship must be made clear because faith can only be glorified through it's object.

YES.

Thank you. That is well-said. And what I have said for at least the last few months is that God is not merely the object of our worship, but also the subject of it.

[charl]

Iconography would have done this but it wasn't considered art. Michelangelo was paid a lot of money.

Come now there are really people who always feel just the way they should about God when the worship music starts? Are they all on a desert island so that I've never seen them?

Yes response should be incidental, that is it should be an accompaniment.

And I keep saying that I don't think we should turn off emotions in church. My problem is again and again churches where the music and emotionalism is indeed both the means and the end. Christ is kind of thrown in there as a second thought. Oh yeah I guess he's the one that makes it possible for us to do all this worshipping. And yes I think emotions should be de-emphasized compared to the way it is now in most churches. That does not mean done away with. Do I have to break down every time I "worship"? If I'm not wildly emoting that means I feel nothing? In such churches the unstated answer is yes. Once again moderation in all things. I've done my time in the brig of emotionalism and I hate that the same thing is happening to others. Why do we have to ride this roller coaster when the church could just preach Christ to us?

Okay I guess we mostly agree. However I don't think the fact can be escaped that in many churches the worship is seen as more vital than the receiving of Christ's work which is backwards. Why else do we have the worship time every week and don't hear the gospel as often? How do we know what the worship time is for without it? PHEH.

I won't be shooting any priests that don't trespass on my property. I don't have a gun.

You know hitting upon the blues, praise and worship music (the actual music mind you) as pop music has is no room in it for the blues. In fact I would say pop music is diametrically opposed to the blues in every way. It is glossy and pretty while the blues is raw, frank and visceral. In some ways pop music is the soundtrack to the religion of law. It is the attempt to clean us up and make us shiny and perfect, even in our musical expression.

Any pop song speaking about darkness and difficulty is going to sound rather trite. Praise music shares that. So even in it's focus on emotion, it is not a full and real range of emotion, but manufactured positivity. Perhaps that is also why I see it as manipulative-and in that it does indeed oppose reality. That the blues is both "viceral" and "real" is due to the fact that it covers all aspects of life and does so honestly.

Praise music doesn't have really bad doctrine either, it's just kind of squishy and adoctrinal. It's frequently aimless and doesn't understand it's object. Doctrine gets in the way of the sentiment. That is also what I dislike.

[winterlens]

Do you hate quoting?

Why do we have to ride this roller coaster when the church could just preach Christ to us?

I think this is the best sum-up you've provided. And I wholeheartedly agree. I'm really not a fan of emotionalism -- and I particularly dislike the de facto emotional status quo in most churches. I, too, spent time in that trap; but I think I have also spent time in the intellectual trap.

I don't have a gun.

For some reason I was persuaded you had a shotgun. I don't have the foggiest idea why, though.

{Pop} is glossy and pretty while the blues is raw, frank and visceral.

And I think this is the way our understanding of the Scriptures should be. There is no censorship in the Scripture, and certainly nothing personally flattering. There's no dress-up in the crucifixion--just a lot of blood and guts.

it's just kind of squishy and adoctrinal

I consider that bad doctrine.

[charl]

Quoting is annoying. You know what you said.

I think the quest for the deus nudus (yes I know I keep going back to that...) does indeed discover an angry wrathful God. This is why it's dangerous and scary. If God hates me why should I live? It should not be encouraged.

Lack of doctrine can be considered bad doctrine because it does not say the correct things about God, but not in the way we would normally understand it, because it doesn't say the wrong things either.

Heretics of the past for example were obviously such because they would proclaim things that were, well, heretical. It is now often hard to tell orthodoxy from heresy because neither is well defined. The heretic speaks in the same way as the orthodox, and neither make their doctrinal position clear. At one time we could strongly oppose falsehood. But now it is difficult to tell if there is any there. In some ways even bad substance is better than no substance.

I said I was thinking about getting a gun. In case you showed up at my house in a collar.

[winterlens]

Quoting is annoying. You know what you said.

I am officially now on the record saying that I have a hard time remembering what I have said. Not a good thing for personal responsibility, I guess.

Heretics of the past for example were obviously such because they would proclaim things that were, well, heretical.

Not only that, they would insist they were orthodox. These days the heretics will proclaim it as such -- open theists for example.

I said I was thinking about getting a gun. In case you showed up at my house in a collar.

So when would you get the gun? After I showed up?

[separateunion]

I said I was thinking about getting a gun. In case you showed up at my house in a collar.

What does wearing a collar have to do with anything?

[charl]

Clerical collars.

I live in a farming community and I could probably borrow a gun quickly enough.

I worked on Good Friday. I did have depravity preached to me when one of the residents told us we were dirty pigs though.

[charl]

Goodness on worship from that most worthy and unintelligible Divine John Owen:

[quote]The nature and being of God is the foundation of all true religion and holy religious worship in the world. The great end for which we were made, for which we were brought forth by the power of God into this world, is to worship him and to give glory unto him; for he “made all things for himself,â€

[separateunion]

Clerical collars.

I live in a farming community and I could probably borrow a gun quickly enough.

I worked on Good Friday. I did have depravity preached to me when one of the residents told us we were dirty pigs though.

Are you sure it doesn't have anything to do with his unhealthy fascination with Sailor Moon?