I Love Seeing Justice

[brent]

What is the healing referenced? It was not physical per se. Man can heal. The mind can heal. The reference hasto do with more than physical healings, which are not the norm. We have not because we ask not is not contextual here either. God said that he loves all, rains on the good and evil, blesses whomever he will as he sees fit. Paul had an affliction. God would not remove it, yet Paul, the one chosen to have a personal revelation of Jesus Christ himself asked three times (a figure of speech). He asked. God said no. It was used to make Paul stronger, so that he would continue to buffet his flesh, making it his servant.

Because you are a believer is NOT a reason to be healed. God heals non-believers, whether they ask him or not. God choses not to heal great men and women of God for his purpose. Miracles are called miracles because they are beyond our ability and few and far between. They are not every day events. Saying what you said makes God a liar and a believers faith performance based and conditional. There is no mention by any of the NT books that physical healing is tied to the atonement. There is no mention in the NT of the transgressions and sickness being tied together. In fact, Jesus was asked what an afflicted man did to get what he had. Jesus said nothing. If you can do nothing to get sick and nothing to get healed, it kind of shoots down the miinterpretation of Isaiah doesn't it?

Now, one last thing. The bible says that it is appointed unto men once to die. Now, unless someone has a failing body, sickness, etc, how can the man (under normal circumstances) die? If what you say is true, no believer would ever die, since all they had to do is ask to keep on living. There is more to living than life here.

[bakersfieldpethead]

Um…….I wasn’t looking to get into another debate. I was manly trying to state my agreement with everyone else that there are too many preachers preaching out of desire for material possessions instead of preaching the Gospel.

I don’t know what sparked that little reply.

I will say that I’m the wrong guy to debate your little topic there. Being that for me, some of your statements have already been proven wrong just from the life I’ve been living. So there is absolutely no way I can see your point of view, unless I can assume you’ve never had to believe God for anything regarding your health or you have and it didn’t come out the way you expected so you came up with this theory in any case. Scriptures like “With his stripes we are healed” have already been alive in my life for the things I have had to deal with, so many things, no not few and far between, but many miracles where the Doctors and modern medicine can’t do anything.

My family has long been bearers of the cross and sickness has afflicted them several times but yet God has healed them and they lived years on. Let me ask you…..what did the disciples die of? What did Paul die of? Not of illness that’s for sure, they were all killed for the cause of Christ.

So there are many other ways, even being for the fact if God is ready to take you home he’ll do it and he doesn’t need an illness to cause you to die.

[brent]

What I am saying, what the bible and what Jesus Christ says, is that it is not normal and not for everyone.

[ErioL]

What I am saying, what the bible and what Jesus Christ says, is that it is not normal and not for everyone.

Incorrect. What are you basing this doctrine on? Isaiah 53:5 says be his stripes we were healed, 1 peter 2:24 says we were healed, matthew 8:16-17 speaks of Jesus healing "all who were ill." In Matthew 9 Jesus asks whether its easier to forgive sins or heal diseases. Sickness is a result of the fall. I will not judge God's word based on the experiences of others. If I am sick, I will pray to be healed. As bakersfield referenced, "you have not because you ask not." I have a problem with the "prosperity" doctrine, but I draw a big line when people call it the "health and wealth" doctrine. Those are two different things. John 14:14 says "ask anything in my name and I will do it." I can go on all day.

[brent]

What I am saying, what the bible and what Jesus Christ says, is that it is not normal and not for everyone.

Incorrect. What are you basing this doctrine on? Isaiah 53:5 says be his stripes we were healed, 1 peter 2:24 says we were healed, matthew 8:16-17 speaks of Jesus healing "all who were ill." In Matthew 9 Jesus asks whether its easier to forgive sins or heal diseases. Sickness is a result of the fall. I will not judge God's word based on the experiences of others. If I am sick, I will pray to be healed. As bakersfield referenced, "you have not because you ask not." I have a problem with the "prosperity" doctrine, but I draw a big line when people call it the "health and wealth" doctrine. Those are two different things. John 14:14 says "ask anything in my name and I will do it." I can go on all day.

No, misapplications say that. The whole bible says otherwise. That doctrine you have is nowhere in the NT. Jesus did not preach it. The Apostles did not preach it. The disciples and apostles had issues, were afflicted, were ill, and none of them were told to claim their healing in the stripes. Not one time. Paul gave a cure: A little wine is good for the belly.

Jesus gave miracle signs and wonders but none of them were a result of his atonement. Not one. Prove otherwise.
The disciples and apostles were given a gift of healing. GIFTS. Not one time did anyone mention the atonement and Jesus taking our place for our sins.

You guys need to read the whole bible and let the whole bible say what it says, not ONE misapplied verse. You are reading English and not Hebrew in it's context of events and future when Israel is restored.

[brent]

http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/does ... ing-today-

[ErioL]

What I am saying, what the bible and what Jesus Christ says, is that it is not normal and not for everyone.

Incorrect. What are you basing this doctrine on? Isaiah 53:5 says be his stripes we were healed, 1 peter 2:24 says we were healed, matthew 8:16-17 speaks of Jesus healing "all who were ill." In Matthew 9 Jesus asks whether its easier to forgive sins or heal diseases. Sickness is a result of the fall. I will not judge God's word based on the experiences of others. If I am sick, I will pray to be healed. As bakersfield referenced, "you have not because you ask not." I have a problem with the "prosperity" doctrine, but I draw a big line when people call it the "health and wealth" doctrine. Those are two different things. John 14:14 says "ask anything in my name and I will do it." I can go on all day.

No, misapplications say that. The whole bible says otherwise. That doctrine you have is nowhere in the NT. Jesus did not preach it. The Apostles did not preach it. The disciples and apostles had issues, were afflicted, were ill, and none of them were told to claim their healing in the stripes. Not one time. Paul gave a cure: A little wine is good for the belly.

Jesus gave miracle signs and wonders but none of them were a result of his atonement. Not one. Prove otherwise.
The disciples and apostles were given a gift of healing. GIFTS. Not one time did anyone mention the atonement and Jesus taking our place for our sins.

You guys need to read the whole bible and let the whole bible say what it says, not ONE misapplied verse.

Have you read the whole Bible? I am not using "one" misapplied verse. I am not moved by our dogmatic statements. Mark 16:18 Jesus commissions his disciples to lay hands on the sick, and they will recover. James exhorts the brethern if there are any sick among you to have the church elders pray over them and the prayer of faith will heal the sick. Luke 10:19 Jesus gave us all power over the enemy. 1 John 5:14 says as He IS so are we in this world - let me remind you Jesus is a resurrected Lord, Rev 1:18 says "I am He that lives and was dead, and have the keys of death and hell in my hand, and behold am alive for ever more." Romans 8:11 if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Its a load a crap that I've misapplied "one" verse.

[ErioL]

I would further add that one of the reasons the signs and wonders of the first church are almost extinct in the American western church is because of doctrines such as the one you espouse. There is no faith for it. As James says let no man asking wavering, a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Ultimately God has the final word. You can die not believing, I will hold fast to Jesus' words.

[brent]

What I am saying, what the bible and what Jesus Christ says, is that it is not normal and not for everyone.

Incorrect. What are you basing this doctrine on? Isaiah 53:5 says be his stripes we were healed, 1 peter 2:24 says we were healed, matthew 8:16-17 speaks of Jesus healing "all who were ill." In Matthew 9 Jesus asks whether its easier to forgive sins or heal diseases. Sickness is a result of the fall. I will not judge God's word based on the experiences of others. If I am sick, I will pray to be healed. As bakersfield referenced, "you have not because you ask not." I have a problem with the "prosperity" doctrine, but I draw a big line when people call it the "health and wealth" doctrine. Those are two different things. John 14:14 says "ask anything in my name and I will do it." I can go on all day.

No, misapplications say that. The whole bible says otherwise. That doctrine you have is nowhere in the NT. Jesus did not preach it. The Apostles did not preach it. The disciples and apostles had issues, were afflicted, were ill, and none of them were told to claim their healing in the stripes. Not one time. Paul gave a cure: A little wine is good for the belly.

Jesus gave miracle signs and wonders but none of them were a result of his atonement. Not one. Prove otherwise.
The disciples and apostles were given a gift of healing. GIFTS. Not one time did anyone mention the atonement and Jesus taking our place for our sins.

You guys need to read the whole bible and let the whole bible say what it says, not ONE misapplied verse.

Have you read the whole Bible? I am not using "one" misapplied verse. I am not moved by our dogmatic statements. Mark 16:18 Jesus commissions his disciples to lay hands on the sick, and they will recover. James exhorts the brethern if there are any sick among you to have the church elders pray over them and the prayer of faith will heal the sick. Luke 10:19 Jesus gave us all power over the enemy. 1 John 5:14 says as He IS so are we in this world - let me remind you Jesus is a resurrected Lord, Rev 1:18 says "I am He that lives and was dead, and have the keys of death and hell in my hand, and behold am alive for ever more." Romans 8:11 if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Its a load a crap that I've misapplied "one" verse.

I am not disputing healings. I think you have misunderstood. God heals. Jesus healed. The disciples and apostles healed. Others healed. But it is not guranteed as part of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Isaiah 52 and 53 are not talking about the physical per se now. They are talking about the sin of man and what Jesus would do. If you study the Hebrew, you will get that. If you study further you will see the prophecy in it. Remember, this text was written to the Jews.

I AM disputing that God has to give you what you ask for. God does not have to heal if it is not his will and serves his Kingdom. There are too many biblical references for this. Being afflicted is in many cases part of the life. Being poor is in some cases part of the life. If there were no poor or sick, then we would not learn how to care for people. Notice in the NT, people are told to care for one another. People are told to lay hands and pray for people. Nobody is told that because they are believers they are healed. If they are healed because they are believers, would that not mean the healing came at the time the person accepts Christ? If we are delivered and a new creation now, would we not be healed BEFORE we are afflicted? You need to use some simple logic and read how things fall in time in the bible. The reason why your doctrine is false is because you are trying to apply something that is prophetic to you today.

Yes, Jesus conquered the grave, death, etc, yet we still die.
Yes, Jesus saved us, yet we still work it out here. We occupy until he comes.
Yes, We have eternal life, yet we still have to die to get to it.
Yes, We are Holy, yet we are not holy now. We still sin.
Yes, We will have an incorruptable body, free of sin and sicknes and death. Not now. We are still here on earth. We are still subject to the god of this earth, as God sees fit to use him and us, to bring about God's perfect work.

[ErioL]

God obviously doesn't have to do anything I ask Him, but I know he honors His Word and Jesus said plainly in John 14:14 ask anything in my name and I will do it. At least we agree there are gifts of healing. Then according to 1 cor 12:31 I will covet earnestly the higher gifts. Psalms 91 says with long life he will satisfy me and show me his salvation. I'll stand on that. God will reveal where I, or anyone else, has gone wrong doctrinally at the "bema seat."

[brent]

That is not what that verse says. It is one of many translations, but it is not in context of the Chapter. It all goes back to how Jesus taught us to pray, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Yes, He CAN, but that doesn't mean he will. He will if it is good for us and good for him and his will. Again, this verse was not addressing affliction. Paul new this verse well. Yet, Paul was afflicted, asked God, and God declined. It was not good for Paul, good for God or good for God's will. Again, if you are saying that because you ask Jesus to heal you that he will, you must reconcile this with Isaiah which says you were healed already by the stripes. So pick one. They are juxtaposed.

[ErioL]

Oh bother, there I go taking stuff out of context. I guess I should just throw my Bible away since my brain is certainly too small to ever understand anything in it. God help me.

[bakersfieldpethead]

Again, if you are saying that because you ask Jesus to heal you that he will, you must reconcile this with Isaiah which says you were healed already by the stripes. So pick one. They are juxtaposed.

Nope wrong. Isaiah says "With his Stripes we ARE Healed", the whole scripture was prophetic to what was going to happen with Jesus who had not even come yet, everything in that scripture happend to Christ. The NEW Testament says “We WERE Healed” meaning it was already finished, Christ had already done the work.

It goes hand in hand with, He knows what we have need of before we even ask it.

And brother let me tell you something. God gave us a will of our own, we can move the hand of God. God will take you when your work down here is done, He don't need any help from the Devil.

[p-freak]

Has anyone ever visited Crystal Cathedral?

I haven't. I've seen a tv-program though where a Dutch historian and Americologist (yes, it's not a word, but it describes best what this guy does, he's an academic expert on all things America) visited the States and looked at the influence of religion. He went to LA and he met with Schuller Sr. (who's ancestry lies in my country). Quite interesting. And this professor guy is sort of agnostic/atheist, even though he was raised reformed - so that was interesting.

[brent]

Again, if you are saying that because you ask Jesus to heal you that he will, you must reconcile this with Isaiah which says you were healed already by the stripes. So pick one. They are juxtaposed.

Nope wrong. Isaiah says "With his Stripes we ARE Healed", the whole scripture was prophetic to what was going to happen with Jesus who had not even come yet, everything in that scripture happend to Christ. The NEW Testament says “We WERE Healed” meaning it was already finished, Christ had already done the work.

It goes hand in hand with, He knows what we have need of before we even ask it.

And brother let me tell you something. God gave us a will of our own, we can move the hand of God. God will take you when your work down here is done, He don't need any help from the Devil.

Don't make Isaiah, written to Jews, by Jews, as Jewish prophecy, to mean something physical for you. You have plenty of other scriptures to stand on, but not that one. The context of the whole chapter has nothing to do with the physical body of an individual. Study the Hebrew. Don't take the English translation literally because no word refers to the believer's physical body today.