Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever Lived

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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by gman » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:07 pm

CatNamedManny wrote:I think these posts miss the point of evangelical universalism, which is not that people don't go to hell, it's that hell lasts a finite period of time, and that in the end every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, thus earning them salvation.
I think I was looking more at why people would gravitate toward the above mentioned view. They aren't comfortable with the traditional Christian view. Same thing with Free Grace. If someone's life is cut short and they made a profression of faith at some point, but never showed any evidence of being a Christian, Free Grace is there to definitively say he or she is in heaven.
People want to believe the bible is true, but they also want to reconcile it with human experience. No surprise that people would find Bell's views attractive.
Then again, there are people who are enamoured with Bell the rock star, and what he teaches or believes doesn't matter.
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by CatNamedManny » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:07 pm

gman wrote:
CatNamedManny wrote:I think these posts miss the point of evangelical universalism, which is not that people don't go to hell, it's that hell lasts a finite period of time, and that in the end every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, thus earning them salvation.
I think I was looking more at why people would gravitate toward the above mentioned view. They aren't comfortable with the traditional Christian view. Same thing with Free Grace. If someone's life is cut short and they made a profression of faith at some point, but never showed any evidence of being a Christian, Free Grace is there to definitively say he or she is in heaven.
People want to believe the bible is true, but they also want to reconcile it with human experience. No surprise that people would find Bell's views attractive.
Then again, there are people who are enamoured with Bell the rock star, and what he teaches or believes doesn't matter.
Yes, I think this is more or less true, that people gravitate toward an alternative viewpoint or theology if they find the current one cannot coexist with their view of how the world works. That's why it's good to test these things against the Scripture. There are passages that seem distinctly universalist to me (Romans 11, Colossians 1, I Corinthians 15), enough to make me realize it's not quite so cut and dried, and I can't seem to find any passages that contradict the view of evangelical universalism held by people like Talbott, Richard Beck, perhaps Rob Bell, etc. As I said, I'm happy to be proven wrong.
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by gman » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:52 pm

This is a decent start, picked from http://carm.org/universalism
John 3:36 (NASB95)
36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46).
The universalists do not believe in eternal punishment. Universalists teach that all will eventually be saved through the atonement of Jesus. Therefore, when the Bible speaks of eternal punishment and hell fire, etc., the universalist interprets it to mean an inner sorrow due to loss of reward and/or they maintain that the word "eternal" does not mean "without end."

In Greek, the word "eternal" is the word "", or "aionion." This word occurs in two places in Matt. 25:46: Let's look at it again in a Greek Interlinear form:
Image
The exact same word "," "aionion" is used to describe the duration of punishment as well as of the life of the righteous - those who are saved. The same word describes both conditions. If it means one thing in the first part of this sentence, then it means the same thing in the second part since they are both in the same context and both are describing time-duration of the states of the unsaved and the saved. If the punishment is eternal, then so is the life.
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by brent » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:23 pm

There is no scripture to support any life after hell.
Jesus told the story of the rich man who was dead and awaiting judgement. Jesus did not give the dude hope of life after hell.
There is judgement. Judgement is final.
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by zak89 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:30 pm

What kind of sick God gets his jollies with people dying of sickness, disease, lack of food and water, children being molested and murdered, etc, etc, and then allows them to be tortured forever in hell when it's all over?
Well, I'm not sure exactly where one gets the "jollies" regarding God and death/suffering on the earth. Besides that, assuming one believes in universal opportunity (by which I mean, a true choice to believe/reject the gospel), than the whole "allows them to be... in hell when it's all over?" part loses it's crunch. But then we'd have the repeat that whole debate from a few threads ago.
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by brent » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:20 am

I have heard sceptics say that often. "If God is real and he is love, why is there...x, y, z?" Their perspective is incorrect. They are asking the wrong question for what they are observing. Without the whole picture presented to them in a resonable manner, they will just be turned off by what they see on TV, etc. That was the point.
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by CatNamedManny » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:43 am

Besides that, assuming one believes in universal opportunity (by which I mean, a true choice to believe/reject the gospel), than the whole "allows them to be... in hell when it's all over?" part loses it's crunch.
Well, the problem is that there is no universal opportunity, at least not in this life. I think everyone can agree on that. The good fortune of being born to Christian parents or in a country where Christianity is widespread and accepted plays a huge role into the likelihood that one will hear the gospel.

Anyway, the "jollies" part of the quote wasn't my construct, and I obviously don't agree with it.

Regarding the Greek word aionion, I'm not terribly convinced, given that the word is not actually the Greek word for everlasting, aiodios, and there is obviously dispute over what it signifies. The fact that even those who argue it must mean eternal life/death agree it has multiple meanings and is used to mean something different elsewhere in the Bible, whereas a word that has a clear meaning of "everlasting/eternal" was not used, strikes me as strange.

From http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/aionole.htm:
The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting. Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God's relations to time. God's eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded. That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of "the everlasting power and divinity of God." In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that "the mystery" has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title 'o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10. The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; concordance. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father's commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.
There is no scripture to support any life after hell.
Perhaps not, but there are no Scriptures to unambiguously declare the divinity of Christ, the trinity or the rapture. These doctrines developed over time by discerning what the Scriptures pointed to. Universalists argue the Scriptures point to universal salvation ("Christ in all," "Every knee shall bow," "In Adam all died, so in Christ all will be raised," the dead branches regrafted onto the tree, etc.) and a punishment in hell, thereby requiring that punishment to be of a finite nature for the purpose of producing ultimate salvation.
There is judgement. Judgement is final.
According to whom? God pronounced judgment on Israel and sent them away into captivity for a finite period of time only to ultimately restore them to Himself. I don't think there's any scriptural support whatsoever that judgment is necessarily final. It certainly can be, but I don't see where judgment must imply finality.

I'm not sure how much we want to use the story of the rich man and Lazarus as a template for what happens after we die. After all, that story strongly indicates Lazarus got there because he was a cruel, wealthy man, i.e., it indicates the existence of a works-based salvation. Further, the story deals entirely with the present — the rich man's current state in hell, not his future one. I for one am not willing to draw many theological truths based on the absence of details from a parable.

But since we're on the subject of Jesus' teachings, I try to take my cues from Jesus' comments in Matthew 19. After saying it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, his disciples asked him, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus replied: "With man, this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

I'm not comfortable stating definitively one way or another what will happen after we die, except to say that the Bible is far less clear on the subject than I realized before I started researching the subject. And so I keep returning to this: With God, all things are possible.
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by zak89 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:09 am

Well, the problem is that there is no universal opportunity, at least not in this life. I think everyone can agree on that. The good fortune of being born to Christian parents or in a country where Christianity is widespread and accepted plays a huge role into the likelihood that one will hear the gospel.
Off topic for a minute, but I happen to believe there is a universal opportunity, by virtue of the fact that all humans have the knowledge of God "written on their hearts". Again, I made my point back in the "World religions" thread, so I won't rehash it here. Obviously, not everyone gets the Gospel thrown in their face in clear cut language for them to reject or believe. But I still think that all humans have at least a token knowledge of God, and those who respond to it will be given more light - while those who don't will be judged for not doing so. End off-topic.
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by CatNamedManny » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:42 am

zak89 wrote:
Well, the problem is that there is no universal opportunity, at least not in this life. I think everyone can agree on that. The good fortune of being born to Christian parents or in a country where Christianity is widespread and accepted plays a huge role into the likelihood that one will hear the gospel.
Off topic for a minute, but I happen to believe there is a universal opportunity, by virtue of the fact that all humans have the knowledge of God "written on their hearts". Again, I made my point back in the "World religions" thread, so I won't rehash it here. Obviously, not everyone gets the Gospel thrown in their face in clear cut language for them to reject or believe. But I still think that all humans have at least a token knowledge of God, and those who respond to it will be given more light - while those who don't will be judged for not doing so. End off-topic.
I don't have a problem with this, but it does require explaining away scriptures such as, "No one comes to the Father except through [Christ.]" Obviously, those who have never heard of Christ have no ability to come to the Father through Him. Universalism actually appears to resolve this contradiction by arguing they will have this opportunity.

Most Christians probably feel the way you do: that God would not damn someone to hell because they happened to be cosmically unlucky and were born in the Congo, forced to spend their entire life escaping from vicious warring militias who wanted to conscript them, rape them or both, obviously not leaving much time for encountering even the barest mention of the existence of Jesus. Yet this belief requires dismissing or reinterpreting Scriptures that explicitly say otherwise while evangelical universalism, which does not have a clear and unambiguous opponent in the original text of the Scriptures that I can find, is treated as self-apparent heresy. It's an odd contradiction.
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by gman » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:46 am

"Absent from the body is present with the Lord."
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."; the word being Christ.

Boom, winning. :P
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by zak89 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:08 pm

I don't have a problem with this, but it does require explaining away scriptures such as, "No one comes to the Father except through [Christ.]" Obviously, those who have never heard of Christ have no ability to come to the Father through Him. Universalism actually appears to resolve this contradiction by arguing they will have this opportunity.
Hmm... I seem to have been misunderstood - I don't believe for a moment that one could get to heaven because they listend to their conscience or something. I was speaking in reference to hearing the gospel. Again, it's not exactly a very clear issue and I've already been through it - just wanted to clear up things since apparently what I said could be taken as a "universalish" leaning.
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by Jonathan » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:24 am

For those interested in Bell's side of the story:

http://www.livestream.com/lovewins
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by brent » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:46 am

I think universalism of any type is a convenience to ease the conscience and remove any sense of responsibility/liability.

Is anyone else getting the big question: "If God is love, how can he let Japan happen?"
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by Jonathan » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:16 am

This girl sees Japan as proof of God.



Warning: Possible satire.
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Re: Rob Bell: Heaven, Hell...the Fate Of Everyone Who Ever L

Post by CatNamedManny » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:53 am

brent wrote:I think universalism of any type is a convenience to ease the conscience and remove any sense of responsibility/liability.
Since you've already made clear your aversion to reading, I have to ask whether this opinion is based on any kind of informed study of evangelical universalism (the version that believes in hell and judgment). Because it sounds like the opinion of someone who hasn't bothered to actually take the time to learn about the substance of the belief he is criticizing, mostly because supporters of universalism are quick to use Scripture to rebut that very idea. But that's just what it sounds like; I may have misinterpreted.

In any case, here's a link that was just posted today:

http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.co ... 6-why.html

The title, to perk your interest is: "Musings About Universalism, Part 6: Why Universalism is More Biblical"
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