The Petra Zone

Someone not long ago dismissed my recommendation of Bride because Dale Thompson apparently has become a unitarian (or something like that). Finally got around to researching that claim by typing <"Dale Thompson" Bride> into Google, and the very first hit was this:

http://christianmusic.about.com/od/musi ... speaks.htm

Open Letter from Dale Thompson of the Christian Metal Band Bride

Now, in 2007, apparently there are several rumors floating around about the band and the faith of founding member and lead vocalist Dale Thompson. In this open letter, Dale addresses those rumors. ...

Next, about my beliefs. I have not backslid, I have not joined a cult, I have not formed or started a new religion, I have not denounced Christ, I have never said there is no hell, yes I believe that there is a hell, etc, etc, etc.

Here's the deal. I love God with all of my heart and soul. Every fiber of my being has been dedicated to the service of spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. I do this still! No man can come to the Father except they go through the Son and if the Spirit calls them. It takes the blood of Christ, His love, His life, His grace, and mercy to see the Kingdom of God.

Emphasis is mine. He closes with this (emphasis his):

For the last time I will say - I HAVE NOT TURNED BY BACK ON GOD, I HAVE NEVER SAID DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO BECAUSE YOU WON'T BE JUDGED FOR IT, AND YES YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN!

Thank you for enduring this email. I wish I did not have to defend myself.

You would really think there was something more important than Dale Thompson out there that people could entertain their time with.

Dale

Vocalist for Bride

So yeah. I guess we can stop spreading three-year-old rumors that take five minutes to debunk.

I think the part that is missing there, is that hell is not permanent. At some point in the future, all those who went to hell will be taken up by God, and all men will eventually spend eternity with God. Or something like that.

I am sorry, but on his Facebook page is a long conversation stating that he IS a universalist, meaning ALL men will be saved, there is no hell, true believers cannot sin, etc, etc.

What you posted does not debunk anything. It can live within the confines of what he now believes.

brent wrote:What you posted does not debunk anything. It can live within the confines of what he now believes.

+1

Oh man, aren't there any Christian musicians out there (without weirdo beliefs) around which I can build my own theology without having to actually crack a bible?

Jonathan wrote:Oh man, aren't there any Christian musicians out there (without weirdo beliefs) around which I can build my own theology without having to actually crack a bible?

I guess not.

After some other research, it seems Thompson describes himself as a Christian universalist, but his Facebook page, at least the only one I can find, is simply a copy-and-paste from his Wikipedia page, which reiterates that Thompson does in fact believe in a hell, and that the Bible requires men to believe the teachings of Christ (whatever that means).

It seems to me the truth is somewhere in the middle. I certainly don't agree with what appear to be his beliefs, but I don't think it's fair to say he's no longer a Christian, and it seems whatever he believes is actually much more nuanced than has been characterized here.

Jonathan has a way of bringing up valid points...

As I've said before, ANYONE can put ANYTHING on the Internet, so it's probably wise to not believe everything you might read.

I don't think anyone has said that he isn't a Christian. I'd be wary of his theology. Calling Thompson a universalist is only problematic in the sense that he is not part of the Universalist church. I do know other Christians who believe that at some point in time, everyone will be saved, and they don't consider themselves universalists. I don't deny their Christianity, but I still find their theology questionable.

More from Dale: This is what he said today:

"Reconciliation would mean salvation by force, men say, and they are thinking about the freedom of man's will. They claim that when God made man in the first place, He endowed him with freedom of will, the ability to accept God's love or to reject it, and that the decision he makes here and now is a final choice. But Jesus says, "No one is able to come unto Me unless the Father Who sent Me draw him" John 6:44."

Now, this is what the Bible says about reconciliation:

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 (Amplified Bible)

17 Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!
18 But all things are from God, Who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation [that by word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him].
19 It was God [personally present] in Christ, reconciling and restoring the world to favor with Himself, not counting up and holding against [men] their trespasses [but cancelling them], and committing to us the message of reconciliation (of the restoration to favor).

Seems simple to me when taken in context.

So, Dale is, like, a semi-Calvinist universalist?

It seems he got the first part right...it does require God awakening a man/woman by conviction by His Spirit before he/she can ever respond to Him...so, we have irresistable grace combined with total depravity.

Then, I guess he mixes in the human idea of fairness and jumps to the wrong conclusion--that since it is God who calls us and it's not our free will seeking Him, that, to be fair, God will eventually call/save everyone.

The dude needs to read Romans 9.

---Prem

I think it is in John that we learn exactly how God draws us. It is by Christians going, teaching/preaching, people haring, learning and accepting. There is no magical rope. The word draw has been misapplied. While the same word has been used in place of draw, like to pull a cord that draws curtains closed, we see here that it is the presentation of the gospel message. Bob even wrote about this in Back To The Street. We must compell. There are too many people adding too much voodoo to the equation. God prepares the soil. We must be there to do our part.

seperateunion wrote:Calling Thompson a universalist is only problematic in the sense that he is not part of the Universalist church. I do know other Christians who believe that at some point in time, everyone will be saved, and they don't consider themselves universalists. I don't deny their Christianity, but I still find their theology questionable.

The doctrine that all humans (and even fallen angels) will eventually be saved, even if they must suffer the torments of hell for some period, is known as "Apocatastasis". It not only predates "Universalism" and Calvinism, but in fact predates the schism that separated the Roman Catholic from the Eastern Orthodox church.

IT dates back at least as far as Origen (c 185 AD - 254 AD), who taught that in the end, even the devil himself would be restored to fellowship with God and once again join the holy angels. In his teachings, hell exists not to punish, but to purify, cleansing evil from the soul.

While this view is not specifically endorsed by the Eastern Orthodox Church (EOC) today, it is also not universally condemned within that body, and many modern EOC theologians hold to this view. (See this article for more on the EOC view on this doctrine.) And, of course, the EOC is a far cry for "Universalist".

So, one cannot level a charge of "Universalism" at someone merely because they believe in Apocatastasis. The two do not necessarily go together. I do not know if any Universalists are non-Apocatastasists, but I know that many proponents of Apocatastasis are no more Universalists than was Calvin.