The Petra Zone

Hello and Merry Christmas to all. In a World of Chaos, I hope you find the Peace that surrounds (or should) this time of year. I like nothing better then sitting in a quiet room, with a lit Christmas tree and meditating on the birth of Christ.

Now to the topic at hand...

There are many nations who have not heard the Gospel, but adhere to a one God religon.

I wrestle with whether the God we follow is not one and the same. Would our God condemn those that have not had the opportunity to hear the news of his son?

Although it won't effect my spiritual relationship and should support missions to the unsaved, I belive God is just and wouldn't send the ignorant to Hell.

Many here are great thinkers and I'm interested in what others have to say.

cvs2kids wrote:Hello and Merry Christmas to all. In a World of Chaos, I hope you find the Peace that surrounds (or should) this time of year. I like nothing better then sitting in a quiet room, with a lit Christmas tree and meditating on the birth of Christ.

Now to the topic at hand...

There are many nations who have not heard the Gospel, but adhere to a one God religon.

I wrestle with whether the God we follow is not one and the same. Would our God condemn those that have not had the opportunity to hear the news of his son?

Although it won't effect my spiritual relationship and should support missions to the unsaved, I belive God is just and wouldn't send the ignorant to Hell.

Many here are great thinkers and I'm interested in what others have to say.

It seems a troubling question to our modern, Western minds. To us, it seems "unfair" that God would send someone to hell just because they had never heard of Yeshua (i.e. Jesus). In fact, why limit it only to those in other monotheistic religions? What about the South American native tribes who have never heard of the concept of a single God at all, but worship the spirits of the forest and the animals they hunt? It's all they have ever known and all they have ever heard about. Does not The Word itself say, " ... And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? ... "(Romans 10:14) Clearly they can't be expected to believe in Jesus when no one has ever told them.

And why should it even matter if they have heard the Gospel? What about the person who heard the Gospel, but heard it presented by an organization he knew to be crooked and money hungry? How could he be expected to believe the Gospel from such a source? Is sending such people to hell just because they have not had reasonable opportunity to believe "fair"? Or "just"?

The problem is that we have some things twisted around in our heads. First, we must understand that merely not believing in Christ is not why someone would miss heaven. As the Word says, " all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, "(Romans 6:23) and again

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Even our most righteous acts "are like filthy rags". When someone goes to hell, it is not just because he/she did not believe in Yeshua as Savior and Messiah. When someone goes to hell, it is because he/she was human and therefore a sinner. And it is for the sins they have actually committed that they will go to hell.

This is where we have to turn our thinking around. We have to remember that no one, absolutely no one deserves to go to heaven. Not you, not me, not Billy Graham, not The Pope ... no one!!! We are all sinners, and because of that sin, we all deserve to go to hell.

So, if God were to be "fair" and "just" about this, He would not let those who have not heard the Gospel go to Heaven. On the contrary, He would incinerate the entire planet and send us all to hell! That would be just. That would be "fair". That would be treating us all as we deserve.

But He is not fair, as humanity counts "fairness". He is, in fact, grossly unfair in favor of humanity. The word for that, of course, is "mercy". In His Mercy, He sent His son to pay the price for our sins, in order to save some of us ... those Who will believe. In doing so, He showed great Mercy and Grace to the whole of the human race.

Even if He had saved only one human, we should all praise Him and thank Him for His grace and mercy. So then how much more should we Thank Him for all those that He has saved.

So, in fact, you are right, He is not being "just" to everyone. But the ones He is being "unjust" toward are those He has saved. Understand, He had no obligation to save anyone. If He had let us all die in our sins and go to hell, that would have been completely fair!! That would not have been unjust in the least. But instead, He sent Christ to die in our place so that some of us might escape that punishment. He was not "just". As C.S. Lewis said in Till We Have Faces, "What would become of us if [He] were?"

Because God had Mercy and Grace, we escape "justice" and are saved by the blood of the lamb. We have received a Great Gift. Let us rejoice in it.

So it is important that we support our missionaries and ministries which reach the lost. For if we want to see more people saved from their just reward, we must spread the Gospel everywhere.

Why aren't you discussing other town and neighborhood religions. Why just world religions?

brent wrote:Why aren't you discussing other town and neighborhood religions. Why just world religions?

I had a really witty reply typed up, poking fun at lots of "Town and Neighborhood Religions" such as High School Football, Beauty Pageants, Free Masonry, and 4H, but I realized that cvs2kids was serious and wanted a serious discussion of the issues.

I think this subject is something cvs really needs to look at. So, I think we ought to keep it serious for now so that she can examine the issues she needs to.

Party pooper.

cvs2kids wrote:I wrestle with whether the God we follow is not one and the same. Would our God condemn those that have not had the opportunity to hear the news of his son?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If God is a just God, If God is a forgiving God and a compassionate God, then I would have to believe that God will not return until everyone has had a chance to know who He is and has had a chance to except Him or reject Him.

bakersfieldpethead wrote:

cvs2kids wrote:I wrestle with whether the God we follow is not one and the same. Would our God condemn those that have not had the opportunity to hear the news of his son?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If God is a just God, If God is a forgiving God and a compassionate God, then I would have to believe that God will not return until everyone has had a chance to know who He is and has had a chance to except Him or reject Him.

When I was a kid, I heard this. I believed it and said it as an adult. But I don't think it is true now. First of all, it isn't in the bible. Second, this assumes the Holy Spirit will be without cause and effect before it is removed from the earth. Third, it assumes that evil will overcome the Holy Spirit.

This brings about an interesting discussion. What about aborted babies? They never had a chance to hear. There is no place in scripture that says babies who have not been allowed to decide are in heaven. Only the saved are in heaven. If one is not saved, one is lost. The lost go to hell. What do we say of that justice? What about people in the far most reaches of the planet that have yet to be reached. What about all of those that died before mass evangelism and communication? Certainly people have died without hearing the name of Jesus Christ. They all went to hell?

I think we have mis-read the bible. There IS no other name by which man can be saved. There is only one way to God, and that is Christ. I think if we should consider that the great commission is not to save, but to disciple. Paul said no man is without excuse, because nature and conscience itself give witness to God. Jesus died for all. I think God knows who will and will not, reached or not. I think that God knew before creation began. I think we forget that WE do not save by our actions and people are not saved by theirs. God DID the saving. Because God knows all, and still allowed evil people to exist, it shows that God has a purpose. God is the author of good and evil, and uses both for his will. God is not so much worried about the results per se, because the results are his and have been preordained by him. His word will not return void. God is giving us a chance to learn, live and love God, and demonstrate himself through us to others. I hope this is clear.

So let's say a young 3 yr old that has a very small understanding of right and wrong dies, what happens to them?

The bible is not clear. I was always indoctrinated with the thought that God would allow the child into heaven.

We get to heaven by accepting God, through Jesus Christ.

John 3:16-17: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
I John 5:12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

We have biblical support in Genesis, Psalms and Ephesians that we are born with a sin nature, with evil hearts. Since we are born in sin, and Jesus/God/turning away from the sin nature must be CHOSEN, not something we are born into, the thought is that the unborn would go to heaven.

I have a child that died prematurely. This does not sit well with me. I do not understand it or want it. However, because God has preordained the chosen, knowing who will and who will not accept him before time began, I can only hope that God knows the possible future, and who would and would not accept him. Maybe he knows that all who die early will not. I don't know and there is no scriptural proof for what I hope for.

Heck, there are people thinking that their pets will be in heaven and there is no support for that either.

If what you saying is true then it would seem the kids that are taken from us before they can understand were taken because God knew they would never believe?

That is one thought. That does not sit well with me. But, there is no guarantee that my three daughters would chose Christ because they lived either. Nobody has the answer. There is no more justice in a baby dying than a mass murder living a long life, inflicting pain and death on innocent people. All I can do is know God is sovereign.

There is nothing in the Bible that teaches we are born already condemned as sinners. Romans is very clear that we all died because we all SINNED. There has been a lot of twisting of the Word through the centuries to support this Catholic doctrine and sadly, it's one thing that most of the reformers never broke free from, save for the Anabaptist who were the only ones who seemed more concerned with God's word than they were the alliance between the church and the state. If anyone really wants to believe that Adam's sin is passed from generation to generation, try reading Ezk. 18. If that doesn't make you think twice nothing will.

Wait, when did Brent become a Calvinist?

And every Catholic I know vehemently argues against the idea of a sin nature, so I'm not sure how that's Catholic doctrine.

Catholics and Lutherans believe in original sin. That is the sin with which we are all born because of Adam's sin. They generally believe this sin will condemn us to Hell if we are not baptised. That's why infant baptism is so important in those denominations, because if an infant should die without being baptised, it may not be saved. Some Protestants reject that idea, but affirm that we are born with a sin nature that compels us to sin. In truth, all of creation was corrupted and subject to decay because of the fall. We are flawed and imperfect creatures and therefore, we sin. All who sin die spiritually and there are none who do not sin. But the idea that we are born condemned is not Biblical at all. The scriptures generally offered for support of it are taken out of their context or are poorly applied.

None of this is a problem for Calvinists, because they reject free will. Salvation is all of God and therefore, it doesn't matter if some don't hear because they were never meant to be saved. It also doesn't matter if an infant or unborn child dies, because if they are meant to be saved they will be and if not, they won't. Generally, they believe that the children of believers are saved.

Preacherman777 wrote:There is nothing in the Bible that teaches we are born already condemned as sinners. Romans is very clear that we all died because we all SINNED. There has been a lot of twisting of the Word through the centuries to support this Catholic doctrine and sadly, it's one thing that most of the reformers never broke free from, save for the Anabaptist who were the only ones who seemed more concerned with God's word than they were the alliance between the church and the state. If anyone really wants to believe that Adam's sin is passed from generation to generation, try reading Ezk. 18. If that doesn't make you think twice nothing will.

I'll have to re-read that passage again - thanks for bringing it up. I'm still not about to believe that children are born sinless from a passage that is obviously aimed at Old Covenant Israel - the nation is mentioned over and over again. But I'll admit the argument for a sin nature is far weaker than the argument for the damnation of infants.

Brent, I never, ever would have guessed you subscribed to Calvinism from your previous posts - I guess because most Calvinists are all that pragmatic or dogmatic about human responsibility, as you generally are. I vehemently disagree with your position, but I admire your consistency - most Calvinists go through some impressive hoops to keep the "age of accountability" and unconditional election at the same time. They are totally incompatible, IMHO. Calvinism in almost any form makes my blood boil, though, so I won't go into it here.

FWIW, Brent, what's your position on 2 Samuel 12:21-23 and Matthew 19:14/Mark 10:14?