The Petra Zone

The other day, two church guys came into the shop to buy a PA system. I was not part of the conversation, was busy soldering some stuff, just listening. These guys were talking about the end times, how Revelation is happening now, Israel is at war, the end is near, etc. They were basically building a case that for the USA being the one nation integral to world peace and the protection of Israel. One of the guys asked me if I was hearing the conversation. I told him yes. The long an short of it is, I told the guy some stuff that made the guys in the shop pop eyeballs.

1. He can't sell the USA flag wrapped around the cross around the world. People's perceptions and experience with our country are not going to allow them to associate the two together. Some Christians hate the USA. I told him that I knew of some that were vocally anti-USA, but they were Christians and that is what is important.
2. No country is GOD's country. Heaven is all inclusive of all nations, and God has accepted all people, even when Israel was "God's people". The Kingdom has no government but Jesus, until after the rapture.
3. He can't use replacement theology. The Church is not Israel now. The Church includes people of Israel, if they believe and serve. The Chinese and Russians are not coming to fight us in Armegeddon. Revelation was a book given to a first century writer, to first century people, addressing first century churches that no longer exist. Some of the cities no longer exist and haven't for thousands of years. No book of the bible is written to go back in time, be in the present and go forward in time 2.5 thousand years in the same sentences of verses.
4. Nero was the anti-Christ Revelation was referring to.
5. There will always be types and shadows of the anti-Christ, because it is a spirit, not just a sole person.
6. The USA is not "The Restrainer", although God has used the USA to do the work. God works in disguise. He uses lost and found people, blinds people to truth at will, punishes and rewards people that do not deserve it in our eyes....It is not for us to understand and rationalize.

So, anyway, I used Matthew in my reference to anti-America Christians, and the old man's eyes got big. He lives in a dream world. He said that he networks with 106 churches and they all love Americans. Oooookay. We are the greatest country on the planet. We have impacted history in more positive ways than any other nation. More people migrate to our country and seek citizenship here than any other nation on the planet. We still have the best currency (not by much though and only for a while. Obama isn't through messing things up yet). But that doesn't mean once a foreigner becomes a Christian that they automatically have to like the USA. The USA does not save people's souls. GOD saves whosoever may come.

brent wrote:The other day, two church guys came into the shop to buy a PA system. I was not part of the conversation, was busy soldering some stuff, just listening. These guys were talking about the end times, how Revelation is happening now, Israel is at war, the end is near, etc. They were basically building a case that for the USA being the one nation integral to world peace and the protection of Israel. One of the guys asked me if I was hearing the conversation. I told him yes. The long an short of it is, I told the guy some stuff that made the guys in the shop pop eyeballs.

1. He can't sell the USA flag wrapped around the cross around the world. People's perceptions and experience with our country are not going to allow them to associate the two together. Some Christians hate the USA. I told him that I knew of some that were vocally anti-USA, but they were Christians and that is what is important.
2. No country is GOD's country. Heaven is all inclusive of all nations, and God has accepted all people, even when Israel was "God's people". The Kingdom has no government but Jesus, until after the rapture.
3. He can't use replacement theology. The Church is not Israel now. The Church includes people of Israel, if they believe and serve. The Chinese and Russians are not coming to fight us in Armegeddon. Revelation was a book given to a first century writer, to first century people, addressing first century churches that no longer exist. Some of the cities no longer exist and haven't for thousands of years. No book of the bible is written to go back in time, be in the present and go forward in time 2.5 thousand years in the same sentences of verses.
4. Nero was the anti-Christ Revelation was referring to.
5. There will always be types and shadows of the anti-Christ, because it is a spirit, not just a sole person.
6. The USA is not "The Restrainer", although God has used the USA to do the work. God works in disguise. He uses lost and found people, blinds people to truth at will, punishes and rewards people that do not deserve it in our eyes....It is not for us to understand and rationalize.

So, anyway, I used Matthew in my reference to anti-America Christians, and the old man's eyes got big. He lives in a dream world. He said that he networks with 106 churches and they all love Americans. Oooookay. We are the greatest country on the planet. We have impacted history in more positive ways than any other nation. More people migrate to our country and seek citizenship here than any other nation on the planet. We still have the best currency (not by much though and only for a while. Obama isn't through messing things up yet). But that doesn't mean once a foreigner becomes a Christian that they automatically have to like the USA. The USA does not save people's souls. GOD saves whosoever may come.

The Assemblies of God (AG) has made it quite clear to our missionaries for many, many years that they must be careful not to link Christianity to the USA in such a way that it makes "Christian" and "American" synonymous in anyone's mind. That is why the AG in other nations is not directly linked to the AG in the U.S. In other words, the AG in South Korea does not answer to the AG in the U.S or in any other country. They are "sister churches". But the two organizations are independent of each other. The same is true of the AG in any other nation.

We have always been very, very careful to never "sell the cross wrapped in the flag".

So, I agree that we must never make "Christian" synonymous with "American".

However, there are some points I would like to dispute:

brent wrote:No book of the bible is written to go back in time, be in the present and go forward in time 2.5 thousand years in the same sentences of verses.

Actually, there's a principle of exegesis involved here that says exactly the opposite. I would maintain that many passages of The Bible specifically go back in time and/or are in the present and/or go forward in time centuries or millennia. Christ made this quite clear to His Disciples. I'll demonstrate that in a moment.

This principle is called "The Law of Double Reference". It is an acknowledgment that prophetic or symbolic passages of scripture may, indeed, have at least two fulfillments. The first would be a physical, almost literal interpretation in the near term, the second will be a much later and more complete fulfillment. Often the second fulfillment is not only more complete, but may also be more symbolic or spiritual.

Both the earliest and simplest example of this principle is the prophecy given to Eve in Genesis 3:15. In the immediate, physical sense, it clearly means that Eve's immediate descendants will have enmity with actual, physical snakes and they two will frequently be at war. Even today, many humans will kill snakes on site.

But in the long term, that same prophecy is a prophecy of the coming Messiah. It is the only prophecy that refers to the seed of the WOMAN, rather than the man. The one born of Woman and WOMAN ONLY will CRUSH the head of "the serpent" (i.e. satan).

Prophecies concerning the antichrist often make use of this law as well. The most obvious of these prophecies comes from Daniel 9:25 - 28.

Daniel 9:25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven `sevens,' and sixty-two`sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two `sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one `seven.' In the middle of the`seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

Now, modern Christian tend to interpret this to be a prophecy concerning the antichrist, but Jesus' disciples were surprised to find that Jesus did so as well. The rabbinical teaching in Christ's time was that this prophecy refered to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, an Greek tyrant which had once ruled Israel and was overthrown by the Maccabean Revolt (Happy Hanukkah). And, frankly, when you compare the history of Antiochus to this prophecy, it's pretty much impossible to not interpret it this way.

However, Christ shocked his disciples when he said in Matthew 24:15 - 16 "So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Now, Christ's disciples thought this had already happened. But Jesus told them that it was an event yet to come. Christ Himself therefore supports this "Law of Double reference", that a passage of Prophecy can have an immediate fulfillment (i.e. Antiochus) and a later fullfillment (i.e. antichrist).

Brent wrote:There will always be types and shadows of the anti-Christ, because it is a spirit, not just a sole person.

While it is certainly true that the spirit of the antichrist is already in the world, and has been for some time (1 John 4:3), that does not in anyway negate Paul's statements, nor Daniel's prophecies (such as the one I just mentioned) that speak of the antichrist as being a single man.

In 2 Thessolonians 2:3, Paul specifically refers to him as "the man of lawlessness ... the man doomed to destruction".

I know there are many schools of interpretation that don't see the antichrist as a literal man, but those interpretations of always seemed a bit strained to me. Plus, the first "abomination that causes desolation" was a single man. I see no reason to think the second one won't be the same.

Brent wrote:Nero was the anti-Christ Revelation was referring to.

That theory only works if you isolate it from Paul's writings and the book of Daniel and if you don't interpret the whole "fatal wound that had been healed" thing in Revelation 13 as applying to the antichrist.

John was not political. The theory that Revelation is political commentary on the Roman Empire is just nonsense. John cared about one thing and one thing only ... the gospel; The Kingdom of God!!! Frankly, the kingdom of the Caesars, the Roman Empire, was of little concern to John. He had a much Greater Kingdom with which to concern himself. John would not have gone through the trouble of writing a commentary on Roman politics. He just wouldn't have thought it worth the trouble.

brent wrote:The USA is not "The Restrainer",

I didn't know anyone who thought that it was. The "restrainer" is The Church. When we go, "all hell breaks loose".

We are talking about two different things.

In the manuscripts, there are un-interupted patterns in the various writing forms. They do not switch erratically back and forth. There is a pattern for allegorical, literal and prophetic messages. They don't switch erratically either. THAT is my point. You don't see them mixed without notice. For instance, when Jesus answered people's questions, he replied to THEM with an answer for them, and not to people thousands of years from now. What do people do? Take his "you" and make it "them three thousand years from now", take his three days and make it three thousand years, take the temple and make it something it isn't, etc. When Jesus was on the cross, he quoted Psalms. That gets misinterpreted. I don't know that you can say there is a law of double meaning for every one of his responses. We can generally know what is poetry, what is an analogy, and what is literal. We can usually tell by the historical and geographical context. What is most important is the context of the message of the whole manuscript. Sometimes we can tell by who wrote it. (There are some books up for debate, like The Songs of Songs, i.e. Song of Solomon. Those are not deal breakers. Interpreting the SOS as a love song by Jesus to the Church is a big problem, and it causes people to do some 'splainin'.

Manuscripts not written to us do contain truth, knowledge and wisdom for us to apply in our daily lives now. Trudat. But the whole manuscript must be taken in context. We cannot take whole verses or sentences in one context and give them a double meaning. That is dangerous. When a story is written to first century Christians, with references they would understand, we have to assume it was for their consumption and application in their time. We can't yank what we want out of those manuscripts and make it apply to us at will.

So, I do not buy into the law of double reference. I think that is bad exegesis the way it is practiced. Does it happen? Sure. I think some texts have that by design. But those texts are not the norm. Who decides the application and treatment of the law? Men do. Many bad, incorrect doctrines have been built with this type of thing. If you read the bible, and let the bible say what it says on it's own, in context, then much of that stuff is out the window. It is that law of double reference that is responsible for the date setters doing their thing, the name it claim people doing their thing, the replacement theologists doing their thing.

There will always be types and shadows of the anti-Christ as a person. The spirit of the anti-Christ will be here until Jesus removes it. So, to the first century people two whom the text was written, Nero was the anti-Christ. Hitler was an anti-Christ. Obviously, Jesus has not returned. There is one to come in our time. Some think it is Obama...bwuhahahaha.

Okay.

Rj is a good example for a lot of us that live in the bible belt, or any other bubble. there is plenty of diversity under the umbrella that is Christianity.