John Cooper on Apostasy

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Re: John Cooper on Apostasy

Post by George Harrison » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:18 pm

Dan wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:26 pm
I would rather no one dominate the mic in worship at church. Actually I would rather there be no mic on singers.
I agree
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Re: John Cooper on Apostasy

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:31 am

Dan wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:26 pm
I would rather no one dominate the mic in worship at church. Actually I would rather there be no mic on singers.
Right, we have a worship team but the people switch out every week and it's just to help lead the singing not performers.
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Re: John Cooper on Apostasy

Post by brenthandy » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:16 am

First, I have not seen/read the interview in context and will do so when I return from vacation.

Second, CCM and the Christian music INDUSTRY has NOTHING to do with The Church. One is a business, owned and managed by secular attornies and investors, to make money selling widgets. The other "legit" entity is the local body of believers in Jesus Christ.

The only reason this article could be written is that we in the USA are upside down in our approach. We are shallow. The majority of evangelical believers under 30 believe Jesus Christ is merely one way to Heaven, all religions are valid and lead to the same place. They do not believe in absolute truth or the authority of Scripture.

This should not be blamed upon the businesses providing music to numb nut, non-thinking, non-reading, non-believers. They are merely meeting a need. The Church HAS FAILED to meet needs for a generation, has been selling the wrong message, and the USA is totally F'd as a result. Are you kidding? Of course, Bono is the Billy Graham of this generation. This makes my brain hurt. Bono is as deep as some will ever be because that is all they can tolerate without having to be inconvenienced.

Christianity is HARD. It requires WORK. There will be REWARDS and JUDGEMENTS for the work we did or did not do. We must CHANGE. This is some hard stuff to accept and it doesn't sell many records to young mothers and teens. So, you will never hear it from a successful "artist". You WILL hear it from an unsuccessful group like PDC. Ha. Sorry about that.
Last edited by brenthandy on Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: John Cooper on Apostasy

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:29 am

(Which could be the reason I am more drawn to unknown unpopular unliked groups like Angelica & Nouveaux)
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Re: John Cooper on Apostasy

Post by zak89 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:59 am

brenthandy wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:16 am
...CCM and the Christian music INDUSTRY has NOTHING to do with The Church. One is a business, owned and management by secular attornies and investors, to make money selling widgets. The other "legit" entity is the local body of believers in Jesus Christ.

The only reason this article could be written is that we in the USA are upside down in our approach. We are shallow. The majority of evangelical believers under 30 believe Jesus Christ is merely one way to Heaven, all religions are valid and lead to the same place. They do not believe in absolute truth or the authority of Scripture.

This should not be blamed upon the businesses providing music to numb nut, non-thinking, non-reading, non-believers. They are merely meeting a need. The Church HAS FAILED to meet needs for a generation, has been selling the wrong message, and the USA is totally F'd as a result. Are you kidding? Of course, Bono is the Billy Graham of this generation. This makes my brain hurt. Bono is as deep as some will ever be because that is all they can tolerate without having to be inconvenienced.
100% with you, Brent. That is how I think John Cooper is able to speak (in a sense) from the standpoint of a businessman, warning Christians not to look to his business as their source of revelation about God. Is there something incongruous with confronting this issue while also being all-in in an industry that is part of this gross imbalance? I think there is, yet as you say, this is ultimately a bottom-up problem. Skillet disbanding would do nothing to alleviate the situation, and might even be a net loss. Christians didn't start neglecting the Word of God because Christian music was just all kinds of awesome - Christians started neglecting the Word because they (we) are naturally drawn to things that make us feel good, make us happy, and that in general don't confront us with our own faults and our need to change. There is a market for shallow, feel-good Christian-ish products, and someone is going to meet that demand. That's capitalism. The problem is that the Church has by and large ceded to that market as well, leaving sincere believers and seekers with almost nothing of substance and no one (in a corporate sense) to clearly show them the truth.

What's particularly tragic is that now, in the current debates over marriage, gender, and other "social" issues, the Church in the USA is utterly unprepared to stand for the truth. What weight does it carry to now, after raising generations on offenseless Christianity-lite, when we suddenly appeal to an old book that nobody really understands or reads and condemn behaviors and lifestyles that, by and large, the culture loudly approves? We are not known as a "people of the Book" - we're just another overly-privileged segment of the hypocritical religious community that just doesn't want to get with the times.

Semi-controversial thought of the day: The historical Fundamentalist movement had/has many faults, to be sure, but I think there is a dire need for revival of a bold, reasonable (ie, none of this "old time religion is good enough for me" arrogance) yet ultimately uncompromising form of Biblical "neofundamentalism": God is real, God has spoken, and this is what He said.
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Re: John Cooper on Apostasy

Post by brenthandy » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:15 pm

I was raised IFB. I believe they were great with facts, truths, evangelism. They were just socially awkward, people repellent, and just too forceful. Mostly take-it-or-leave-it, my way or the highway types. This is why PDC did "Get Away". It's about fundamentalism and the church I grew up in.
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Re: John Cooper on Apostasy

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:15 pm

zak89 wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:59 am
brenthandy wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:16 am
...CCM and the Christian music INDUSTRY has NOTHING to do with The Church. One is a business, owned and management by secular attornies and investors, to make money selling widgets. The other "legit" entity is the local body of believers in Jesus Christ.

The only reason this article could be written is that we in the USA are upside down in our approach. We are shallow. The majority of evangelical believers under 30 believe Jesus Christ is merely one way to Heaven, all religions are valid and lead to the same place. They do not believe in absolute truth or the authority of Scripture.

This should not be blamed upon the businesses providing music to numb nut, non-thinking, non-reading, non-believers. They are merely meeting a need. The Church HAS FAILED to meet needs for a generation, has been selling the wrong message, and the USA is totally F'd as a result. Are you kidding? Of course, Bono is the Billy Graham of this generation. This makes my brain hurt. Bono is as deep as some will ever be because that is all they can tolerate without having to be inconvenienced.
100% with you, Brent. That is how I think John Cooper is able to speak (in a sense) from the standpoint of a businessman, warning Christians not to look to his business as their source of revelation about God. Is there something incongruous with confronting this issue while also being all-in in an industry that is part of this gross imbalance? I think there is, yet as you say, this is ultimately a bottom-up problem. Skillet disbanding would do nothing to alleviate the situation, and might even be a net loss. Christians didn't start neglecting the Word of God because Christian music was just all kinds of awesome - Christians started neglecting the Word because they (we) are naturally drawn to things that make us feel good, make us happy, and that in general don't confront us with our own faults and our need to change. There is a market for shallow, feel-good Christian-ish products, and someone is going to meet that demand. That's capitalism. The problem is that the Church has by and large ceded to that market as well, leaving sincere believers and seekers with almost nothing of substance and no one (in a corporate sense) to clearly show them the truth.

What's particularly tragic is that now, in the current debates over marriage, gender, and other "social" issues, the Church in the USA is utterly unprepared to stand for the truth. What weight does it carry to now, after raising generations on offenseless Christianity-lite, when we suddenly appeal to an old book that nobody really understands or reads and condemn behaviors and lifestyles that, by and large, the culture loudly approves? We are not known as a "people of the Book" - we're just another overly-privileged segment of the hypocritical religious community that just doesn't want to get with the times.

Semi-controversial thought of the day: The historical Fundamentalist movement had/has many faults, to be sure, but I think there is a dire need for revival of a bold, reasonable (ie, none of this "old time religion is good enough for me" arrogance) yet ultimately uncompromising form of Biblical "neofundamentalism": God is real, God has spoken, and this is what He said.
Yes, I actually love when in a song the singer confronts a sin because then I can sometimes question myself about the same thing. I love truth at times, (of course sometimes it's hard, but... we need to know it which is better than no truth at all) and one of the things that I don't like about those Christian-ish things is that it's too "feel-good" and doesn't confront the truth always
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